[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by fkwd0130

We plan to rent, so given the choice, gas vs. fuel oil (or whatever you call it!) which is more cost efficient? We are not familiar at all with baseboard heating.

And silliest question of all, is "gas heat" also through baseboards in VT?

...this is why you LOVE flatlanders, right?!?

Neither is really cheap.

Both fuels can be used in other systems. Radiators (the cast iron type), in steam or hot water, are IMHO better than baseboards as they stay hot for a long time. Forced air systems are terrible. Sometimes you find electric baseboard heaters, those aren't very good.

Wood or coal are the cheapest fuels but if you rent I doubt you'll be able to use either.

[123.DieselBenz]

Propane gives off about 91,500 BTU per gallon
#2 Fuel oil gives off about 143,000 BTU per gallon, but #2 can only be used if you have the tank in an area that stay relatively warm, (35+) if it gets too cold it will gel up and will not flow through the oil filter. (= no heat!) So if you have a tank outside you can mix, or run 100% kerosene which is a bit more $ per gallon, and less BTU per gallon . . .

Propane usually runs in the 80% - 90% efficiency rating, while oil runs 72% - 82% efficiency . . . you can get a "vent-less" propane heater/fireplace which is 99% eff, but . . . it will give off a lot of moisture, and use up the oxygen in the room, if it is not burning properly, you could get headaches at best, or die!

Forced hot air is cheaper to install, but . . . tends to blow dust around . . . and the ducts have to be insulated if you don't want that heat wasted in the basement or crawl space. Hot water runs through copper pipes ($) which are easier and cheaper to insulate, tends to be quieter too . . .

Propane companies that own there own tanks (most of them do!) do not want someone else messing with their system, from a liability stand point this makes sense . . . any idea what a "kaboom" will cost a propane company where a family dies?

I preferred wood heat while I lived there, even though I had both oil & propane for heating appliances, and I worked for a fuel company (both propane & oil!) a good stove in the basement, and a tractor and chain saw . . . kept me warm!

[jackmccullough]

Originally Posted by RunawayJim

That's bizarre. You would think that other vendors would be happy to sell you their product regardless of who owns the tanks... But why on earth doesn't the property owner own the tank? It's not like I rent a propane tank for my grill.

They claim it's safety related, although I am highly skeptical. I think it's like all price fixing and territory splitting arrangements: the sellers don't get the opportunity to poach each other's customers, but they have a guaranteed market without price competition.

[123.DieselBenz]

Originally Posted by jackmccullough

They claim it's safety related, although I am highly skeptical. I think it's like all price fixing and territory splitting arrangements: the sellers don't get the opportunity to poach each other's customers, but they have a guaranteed market without price competition.

Most propane companies will be happy to sell you a tank and regulators, and let you take the resposibility . . . tanks are about $2000 each, how many do you want?

Then you can pick and choose you supplier. . .

Also forced hot air give you the ability to filter dust and pet hair out of the air, but remember to change out the filter, the down side is that blast of cool air when the furnace first kicks on!

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by 123.DieselBenz

Most propane companies will be happy to sell you a tank and regulators, and let you take the resposibility . . . tanks are about $2000 each, how many do you want?

Then you can pick and choose you supplier. . .

Also forced hot air give you the ability to filter dust and pet hair out of the air, but remember to change out the filter, the down side is that blast of cool air when the furnace first kicks on!

Tanks don't all cost $2,000. Maybe very large ones, but the normal sized ones can be had for considerably less, well under $1,000, sometimes a few hundred.

[123.DieselBenz]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

Tanks don't all cost $2,000. Maybe very large ones, but the normal sized ones can be had for considerably less, well under $1,000, sometimes a few hundred.

Yeah, but do you want to heat your house with a hundred pound cylinder? only hold 24 gallons!

Besides, tanks don't just fly in and land where you want them . . . and regulators are about $75 each, two needed . . .

And upright 120 gal tank (holds 100 gal of propane) weighs about 300 - 350 pounds empty . . . cost is about $800 . . .

Usually if you do own your own tank, and you have to prove it . . . then most co give atleast a $0.10 per gal discount, sometimes a lot more if you are a large user.

Oil tanks are all property owner owned to my knowledge.

I started out working for Suburban Propane in Chester, VT, than transfered to the Lebanon, NH office, then switched to Iriving Oil in W. Leb, and finally worked for Rymes out of Claremont, NH . . .

[123.DieselBenz]

Originally Posted by jackmccullough

They claim it's safety related, although I am highly skeptical. I think it's like all price fixing and territory splitting arrangements: the sellers don't get the opportunity to poach each other's customers, but they have a guaranteed market without price competition.

Not true.

In the W. Leb, NH area we had 11 competitors . . . people switched companies every chance they got a better price . . .

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by 123.DieselBenz

Yeah, but do you want to heat your house with a hundred pound cylinder? only hold 24 gallons!

Besides, tanks don't just fly in and land where you want them . . . and regulators are about $75 each, two needed . . .

And upright 120 gal tank (holds 100 gal of propane) weighs about 300 - 350 pounds empty . . . cost is about $800 . . .

Usually if you do own your own tank, and you have to prove it . . . then most co give atleast a $0.10 per gal discount, sometimes a lot more if you are a large user.

Oil tanks are all property owner owned to my knowledge.

I started out working for Suburban Propane in Chester, VT, than transfered to the Lebanon, NH office, then switched to Iriving Oil in W. Leb, and finally worked for Rymes out of Claremont, NH . . .

You're way off in your numbers. I know people who've bought tanks, etc., for their homes or cabins. Didn't cost as much as you're saying. But then, you'd save money by not buying your items from the fuel dealers. It may well be cheaper to order a tank than to buy from a fuel dealer, who will gouge you on the price. I did a quick search and found a 120 gallon tank new for $425 (may be cheaper elsewhere but it illustrates my point). A regulator shouldn't be that much.

You can attach several 100 pound tanks together if you have no other option.

[123.DieselBenz]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

You're way off in your numbers. I know people who've bought tanks, etc., for their homes or cabins. Didn't cost as much as you're saying. But then, you'd save money by not buying your items from the fuel dealers. It may well be cheaper to order a tank than to buy from a fuel dealer, who will gouge you on the price. I did a quick search and found a 120 gallon tank new for $425 (may be cheaper elsewhere but it illustrates my point). A regulator shouldn't be that much.

You can attach several 100 pound tanks together if you have no other option.

Go and try to buy a regulator . . . unless you have a VT gas installers license you can not buy one. Unless you have some licensed installer sell you one.

Your $425 tank sounds like a deal, does that include delivery/shipping? Those tanks are heavy! Also most of the tank we sold were underground, so that also keeps the price up, as does the excavation and anode bags that go with it plus digging the hole and trench . . .

Yes, you can tie a bunch of 100 pounders together, or 20 pounders for that fact . . . but the problem with going that route is the gas gets so cold as it frosts up the tank and won't boil off into gas to burn because of the large surface area of the tanks . . . while I was in the business I had all my licenses, and actually help sell new installs, but you can do what you like . . . I'm in AZ now, and spend about $1 day for heat . . .

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by 123.DieselBenz

Go and try to buy a regulator . . . unless you have a VT gas installers license you can not buy one. Unless you have some licensed installer sell you one.

Your $425 tank sounds like a deal, does that include delivery/shipping? Those tanks are heavy! Also most of the tank we sold were underground, so that also keeps the price up, as does the excavation and anode bags that go with it plus digging the hole and trench . . .

Yes, you can tie a bunch of 100 pounders together, or 20 pounders for that fact . . . but the problem with going that route is the gas gets so cold as it frosts up the tank and won't boil off into gas to burn because of the large surface area of the tanks . . . while I was in the business I had all my licenses, and actually help sell new installs, but you can do what you like . . . I'm in AZ now, and spend about $1 day for heat . . .

You can buy them right through the mail if you want. No law stops people from installing their own propane tanks. Going into business installing them for others is a different matter.

I've never known for that to happen to the 100 pound tanks in the NEK. That's an issue up in the Arctic but not really here.

$1 a day for heat...but what's the bill for the air conditioning down there? LOL I'd melt down there...