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Old 01-30-2011, 02:01 PM
 
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I wish I had a dollar for every thread on C-D involving just where and what is the South and just what states do or don't belong! LOL

Anyway, there will never be any definitive and all accepted answer. There are some "Deep South Purists" out there who limit the definition to only 3 - 5 states. At the other extreme, there is the U.S. Census Bureau classifications which groups 16 states within.

Personally, "my South" is the 11 Old Confederate States plus Kentucky, Oklahoma and West Virginia. But that is just me.

Anyway, at least one very interesting definition (if there is any) of the South is that part of the country where a clear majority of residents consider themselves to live in the South and think of themselves as Southerners.

Here is the result of a seven year study out of the U. Of North Carolina, that attempted just that:

*********************************

WHERE IS THE SOUTH?

The South has been defined by a great many characteristics, but one of the most interesting definitions is where people believe that they are in the South. A related definition is where the residents consider themselves to be southerners, although this is obviously affected by the presence of non-southern migrants.

Until recently we did not have the data to answer the question of where either of those conditions is met. Since 1992, however, 14 twice-yearly Southern Focus Polls conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill have asked respondents from the 11 former Confederate states, Kentucky, and Oklahoma "Just for the record, would you say that your community is in the South, or not?" Starting with the third of the series, the same question was asked of smaller samples of respondents from West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, the District of Columbia, and Missouri (all except Missouri included in the Bureau of the Census's "South"). Respondents from the 13 southern states were also asked "Do you consider yourself a Southerner, or not?," while starting with the second survey those from other states were asked "Do you consider yourself or anyone in your family a Southerner?," and if so, whether they considered themselves to be Southerners.

It is clear from these data that if the point is to isolate southerners for study or to compare them to other Americans the definition of the South employed by the Southern Focus Poll (and, incidentally, by the Gallup Organization) makes sense, while the Bureau of the Census definiton does not. We already knew that, of course, but it's good to be able to document it.

--John Shelton Reed

********************************

Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336)

************************

CHAPEL HILL:

Ask even educated Americans what states form "the South," and youre likely to get 100 different answers. Almost everyone will agree on Deep South states -- except maybe Florida -- but which border states belong and which dont can be endlessly debated.

Now, the Southern Focus Poll, conducted by the Institute for Research in Social Science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, provides strong support for including such states as Texas, Kentucky and Oklahoma in the South. On the other hand, West Virginia, Maryland, Missouri, Delaware and the District of Columbia dont belong anymore, if they ever did.

Fourteen polls, surveying a total of more than 17,000 people between 1992 and 1999 show, for example, that only 7 percent of D.C. residents responding say that they live in the South.

Only 14 percent of Delaware residents think they live in the region, followed by Missourians with 23 percent, Marylanders with 40 percent and West Virginians with 45 percent.

"We found 84 percent of Texans, 82 percent of Virginians, 79 percent of Kentuckians and 69 percent of Oklahomans say they live in the South," says Dr. John Shelton Reed, director of the institute. "Our findings correspond to the traditional 13-state South as defined by the Gallup organization and others, but is different from the Census Bureaus South, which doesnt make sense."

The U.S. Census Bureau includes Delaware, D.C., Maryland and West Virginia in its definition.

"Clearly some parts of Texas arent Southern whatever you mean by that -- and some parts of Maryland are," Reed said. "But sometimes you need to say what the Southern states are, and this kind of information can help you decide. Our next step is to look inside individual states like Texas, break the data down by county, and say, for example, where between Beaumont and El Paso people stop telling you that youre in the South."

A report on the findings, produced by UNC-CHs Institute for Research in Social Science, will appear in the June issue of the journal "Southern Cultures." Reed, who directs the institute, says the results should interest many people including survey, marketing and census researchers.

"Personally, I think they ought to be interesting too to ordinary folk who are curious about where people stop telling you youre in the South as youre travelling west or north," he said. "Where that is has been kind of hard to say sometimes."

Perhaps surprisingly, 11 percent of people in Utah, 10 percent in Indiana and slighter fewer people in Illinois, Ohio, Arizona and Michigan claim to be Southerners.

"Thats because in the early part of this century millions of people left the South, and their migration was one of the great migrations not just in American history, but in world history," Reed said. "Their children may not think of themselves as Southern, but they still do."

The UNC-CH sociologist said he was surprised that 51 percent of Floridians describe themselves as Southerners even though 90 percent know their community is in the South.

"Florida is the only state in lower 48 where most people living there werent born there," he said. "In fact, most of them werent born in the South, much less in Florida."

Because of the Souths growing economy, only between 90 and 80 percent of residents of Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Arkansas, Georgia and the Carolinas said they are Southerners, the surveys showed.

"If you want to define the South as where people say it is, now we have a better sense of it," Reed said. "For the most part, it confirms what I already suspected, which is why Im glad to see it. This work shows something we wanted to show, but havent been able to before."
************************************************** *


LOL Does this help a bit?
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Old 01-30-2011, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Western North Carolina
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Southern Virginia is southern. Northern Virginia is really a part of metro Washington D.C. No southern feel to it at all.
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montanamom View Post
Southern Virginia is southern. Northern Virginia is really a part of metro Washington D.C. No southern feel to it at all.
But DC is the South too...Who cares about feel? That's an subjective personal opinion...Virginia is part of the South cause that's the way the government whom formed the North/South boundaries defined it.

Last edited by brother's keeper; 01-30-2011 at 08:06 PM..
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brother's keeper View Post
But DC is the South too...Who cares about feel? That's an subjective personal opinion...Virginia is part of the South cause that's the way the government whom formed the North/South boundaries defined it.
Why does it matter how the Census Bureau defines it? Other government agencies define it differently. To me, how a person "feels" about where they live is much more important than an arbitrary government definition.
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:40 PM
 
314 posts, read 761,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soug View Post
Why does it matter how the Census Bureau defines it? Other government agencies define it differently. To me, how a person "feels" about where they live is much more important than an arbitrary government definition.
Uh..the government made those regions in the first place...If anyone has authority on the subject it would be them.....I'm not sure about that...I haven't anything government related that defined VA as anything but to South...Again feelings are an unreliable standard cause the vary from person to person and based on opinions....Where as the government would be unbiased toward the subject and only presenting facts.
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:19 PM
 
1,953 posts, read 3,884,475 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brother's keeper View Post
Uh..the government made those regions in the first place...If anyone has authority on the subject it would be them.....I'm not sure about that...I haven't anything government related that defined VA as anything but to South...Again feelings are an unreliable standard cause the vary from person to person and based on opinions....Where as the government would be unbiased toward the subject and only presenting facts.
The government did not "make" the cultures that define certain regions. It only defined them in a legal sense. Many people would argue that those definitions are obsolete. The OMB is one agency that groups Virginia with different states than the Census, I'm sure there are others. The OP seems to be asking whether Virginia feels like the South culturally, not whether it is by a government standpoint.
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:15 AM
 
1,790 posts, read 6,526,923 times
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To sum it up a little bit, the posting below explains about the 'southerness' of VA. While 82% say their community is in the south only 60% say their are southerners. In contrast, in NC 80% consider themselves southerners. I think the trend of being southern is definitely diluted in VA as folks from all over the place move to VA. NC is most certainly trending the same way though.


Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336)

Last edited by citydweller; 01-31-2011 at 12:06 PM..
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Old 01-31-2011, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Virginia is Virginia. It's not Alabama, Mississippi or other parts of the deep South and it never has been.
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:03 PM
 
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Northern Virginia and the cost are not southern. The rest of the state is (with exeptions like Charlottesville and SOME parts of Richmond). I live in Lynchburg and due to my job visits Waynesboro, Roanoke and Danville regularly. All four cities are southern...I would say, and I think so would the majority of the recidents in these towns too. I once counted 16 rebel flags driving to work and my neighbour has two portraits of General Robert E. Lee on the wall. Does not exactly yell out "New England forever" does it :-D
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:15 AM
 
10,239 posts, read 19,631,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citydweller View Post
To sum it up a little bit, the posting below explains about the 'southerness' of VA. While 82% say their community is in the south only 60% say their are southerners. In contrast, in NC 80% consider themselves southerners. I think the trend of being southern is definitely diluted in VA as folks from all over the place move to VA. NC is most certainly trending the same way though.


Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses)

Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411)

West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)

Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses)

Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791)

West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336)
Yep, that was a striking and noteable finding of the almost decade long survey. That is, the "chasm" between where respondents said they lived in the South and considered themselves Southerners.

Florida is far and away the best example...what with 90% acknowledging they live in the South, but just a bare majority classifying themselves as Southerners.

Other peripheral Southern states like Virginia and, to a lesser extent, Texas also have that "gap"...and yes, it highly coorelates with the numbers of non-Southern migrants moving in. But interesting that even certain Deep South states have a certain stretch between the two questions...
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