Subtropical = warm temperate

[Bisfbath]

Originally Posted by kemahkami

Koppen does well through a genetics (circulation) standpoint. The problem is just how impactful cold is to vegetation/ecosystems ... even the mildest freeze. That's what leads to the perceived huge differences.

Would NYC really be that different from, say, Hobart or Melbourne if the land were replaced with ocean?

I think it's more that Koppen's Cfa category is just too big and cuts across pretty major natural boundaries. The warmest Cfa climates have coolest months up to 18C and the coldest ones have coolest months down to 0C or even -3C. That's a huge range - 18 to 21C.

Compare his A climates that have a lower limit of 18C and typically top out at about 27C in their coolest month - a range of about 9C ie half the Cfa range.

18C coolest month corresponds with a climate with very little to no cold-induced dormancy. 0C or even -3C coolest month corresponds with almost total dormancy.

The warmest Cfa climates are a lot more like the warmest Koppen A climates than they are like the coldest Cfa climates in my opinion.

[kemahkami]

Originally Posted by Bisfbath

I think it's more that Koppen's Cfa category is just too big and cuts across pretty major natural boundaries. The warmest Cfa climates have coolest months up to 18C and the coldest ones have coolest months down to 0C or even -3C. That's a huge range - 18 to 21C.

Compare his A climates that have a lower limit of 18C and typically top out at about 27C in their coolest month - a range of about 9C ie half the Cfa range.

18C coolest month corresponds with a climate with very little to no cold-induced dormancy. 0C or even -3C coolest month corresponds with almost total dormancy.

The warmest Cfa climates are a lot more like the warmest Koppen A climates than they are like the coldest Cfa climates in my opinion.

I suppose its simply a matter of there being only so much heat. Which is to say, the tropical climate is naturally going to top out at whatever maximum heat the planet Earth can put forth — I suppose it might theoretically be possible to create 100°F/38°C tropical rainforest climate provided there is an obscene amount of rainfall to cancel out evapotranspiration?

The warm climate certainly have little dormancy, without a doubt. But places like Malaga don't seem dormant, and have a coolest mean well below 18°C. It's also hard to tell dormancy when you have PNW rainforests with "evergreens" while a coolest month barely above 0°C:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forks,...hy_and_climate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitka,_Alaska#Climate

[Ed's Mountain]

Originally Posted by Bisfbath

I think it's more that Koppen's Cfa category is just too big and cuts across pretty major natural boundaries. The warmest Cfa climates have coolest months up to 18C and the coldest ones have coolest months down to 0C or even -3C. That's a huge range - 18 to 21C.

Compare his A climates that have a lower limit of 18C and typically top out at about 27C in their coolest month - a range of about 9C ie half the Cfa range.

18C coolest month corresponds with a climate with very little to no cold-induced dormancy. 0C or even -3C coolest month corresponds with almost total dormancy.

The warmest Cfa climates are a lot more like the warmest Koppen A climates than they are like the coldest Cfa climates in my opinion.

I would agree with that.

Koppen does reasonably well genetically--at least as a first-order approximation--for most categories but it fails for Cfa. This is reflected in the ecosystem problems kemahkami pointed out.

Cfa is just too big.

[Subtropical-is-temperate3]

Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain

I would agree with that.

Koppen does reasonably well genetically--at least as a first-order approximation--for most categories but it fails for Cfa. This is reflected in the ecosystem problems kemahkami pointed out.

Cfa is just too big.

Here in Central Florida we are almost 18°C coldest month to tropical, and the -3°C or 0°C do look different, but I can assure you that dormancy has impact here, so -3°C and 18°C have more im common than 18°C and 27°C average months. A 27°C average month is impossible to have any type of dormancy, 18°C can and -3°C and 0°C do have dormancy but not complete frozen ground for long periods. 18°C average is about warmth starts, but lets say 27°C is pure warmth and has no cool weather characteristics as 18°C can. So -3°C and 0°C can compare to 18°C almost like 18°C can to 27°C average months. 10°C average month is where growth can start, but between 10-18°C average months dormancy can still be aroud, slow growing and much more. Below 18°C has no warmth impact, while 27°C does. -3°C and 0°C averages have cold impact but not completely to keep frozen a long time.

Just to think, if it was 18°C outside is about the point where I start to use some type of jacket, if it was -3°C or 0°C I would be using winter clothes well, but at 27°C it would have nothing to even relate to cold, I would start sweating. So for me after 18°C it warms up easily while 18°C or below it really slows up to how cold and heat relate. I can easily compare 18°C easier to 8°C than 27°C eventhough 27°C is closer, it is just more similar in characteristics. 18°C is about where heat and cold divide.