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Of course. In the minds of the "entirely self-made man" people, they "earned" that first job completely - no lucky breaks involved - and it was purely through their hard work, skills, and so forth that they were hired... with no experience... over other candidates. It's total nonsense - everyone was without experience at one time, and thus somebody had to take a chance on them - but that never matters to the "self-made man" people. They block out any instances where luck mattered and repeat the mantra that they alone earned everything they've obtained in life... and thus those less fortunate are "getting what they deserve."
Don't most colleges have internship programs so you can get some experience?
It's nothing more than a fallacy of argumentation; it's what is called a straw-man fallacy. In such a case the person responding attacks an unstated argument and then claims victory. The only way it is a logical rebuttal is if the unemployed person literally says "Someone owes me a job." No one says this, of course, so it is pure non-sense. It is often uttered in response to someone complaining about not being able to find work.
I love this post!
You worded it so well. After all, who the heck is saying, "Someone owes me a job"?
Don't most colleges have internship programs so you can get some experience?
I think you might have missed what I was getting at:
1) I got plenty of experience in college and graduated 14 years ago, and thus I also have well over a decade of mechanical engineering experience. The problem is that my field of work, which is heavily DOD based, has rather dried up. As stated, there's no effective way to swap career fields since to do so, people like me would need to magic up 3 to 5 years of professional experience doing something completely different. That's yet another problem getting old - what was a great profession years ago can be worthless years later, despite having done everything right at the time.
2) I have yet to see an internship at a company that is open to anyone but new graduates entering the workforce for the first time. For the fun of it the lat time I was between jobs, I applied to a few of them anyway, just to make it clear I was willing to learn a new field at lower pay. I never heard back from of any of them, which makes sense since the automated filters will realize I graduated in 2000, not 2013, so I'm not qualified by those standards
3) Same idea with jobs in general that don't require industry experience - nearly all of them are specifically only open to new grads just entering the workforce. Again, you can try to apply, but the auto-filters will weed you out based upon that college graduation date.
Well, I'm a libertarian and I think that anyone that can't get a job should either a) shape up and move to another place and find one, b) at least try to get something minimum wage while they search for one, or c) go get another degree in a field that actually has jobs.
Or, of course we could just give them welfare. That always seems to be a great option for the libs/democrats who think that's the only answer to every social issue in America.
:-)
Actually, nobody here has suggested welfare or other handouts UNLESS we as a nation are simply going to refuse to have enough jobs to go around.
Look, I've stated the facts plenty of times over. Optimistically, there are 2.6 people out of work per job opening. Even if you fall back on the defense that in the best of times not everyone is employed, those "job openings" include: postings that are set up to hire visa workers, postings that are already filled by internal candidates, etc. And, that ratio uses the U3 unemployment number - if you use the more realistic U6 number, you're looking at about 5.1 people who need a job per job opening. That's a horrible ratio.
So, no matter how you slice it, even at best case with every job filled (somehow), you will still have 1.6 people out of work per opening - a number that reaches into the millions of adults - despite everything. It doesn't matter if every person out of work is young and healthy with incredible experience, personality, work ethic, and education - there simply are not enough jobs for all of them. So, we either tell the "excess population" to drop dead, or we confront the problem. Yes, in the short term this may involve some form of social safety net to keep people from dying, but in the long term, we need to bring back the jobs.
Finally, with regard to your specific points:
1) If somebody can move someplace else that has jobs in their field, good for them, but that's not realistic in most cases and, again, there is no magic location that can absorb all the people out of work - there are not enough jobs.
2) Again, not even enough minimum wage jobs to go around, and there's the "overqualified" response, too.
3) Go back to college get in debt, and then what? Again, not enough jobs and if you don't have 3 to 5 years experience, most places won't consider you - you get ONE shot from what I've seen for not having experience, and that's when you first enter the workforce.
It us you vs the world out there no one cares about you or me or the person reading this. It just the facts of life and there is always someine will to do it cheaper than you .
Company's do not care about you or me and I am sure if they could make money of your death they would in a heart beat .
A lot of people are making slave wages just making enough to pay bills and just get by at the end of the month.
One reason why I went back to college is lack of upward mobility in retail and do I want to be 70 + years old still break I back .
You mentioned that if companies could make money off your death, they would do so.
Actually they ARE doing this. It's called "Dead Peasant Insurance." Just more ethical behavior brought to us by our wonderful "job creators!" But it's technically legal, so who cares!
I think you might have missed what I was getting at:
1) I got plenty of experience in college and graduated 14 years ago, and thus I also have well over a decade of mechanical engineering experience. The problem is that my field of work, which is heavily DOD based, has rather dried up. As stated, there's no effective way to swap career fields since to do so, people like me would need to magic up 3 to 5 years of professional experience doing something completely different. That's yet another problem getting old - what was a great profession years ago can be worthless years later, despite having done everything right at the time.
2) I have yet to see an internship at a company that is open to anyone but new graduates entering the workforce for the first time. For the fun of it the lat time I was between jobs, I applied to a few of them anyway, just to make it clear I was willing to learn a new field at lower pay. I never heard back from of any of them, which makes sense since the automated filters will realize I graduated in 2000, not 2013, so I'm not qualified by those standards
3) Same idea with jobs in general that don't require industry experience - nearly all of them are specifically only open to new grads just entering the workforce. Again, you can try to apply, but the auto-filters will weed you out based upon that college graduation date.
I think you're pointing out the structural issues with our employment picture today.
For all the people that complain "just go and retool yourself," it is easier said than done:
Costs aside, simply going back to school to retool isn't going to slide in most cases. Go read your average job postings. They generally want a degree plus very specific experience. How is one supposed to get that experience without a job??? (Notice how none of these people can answer this)
Even when you factor in costs, now your ROI is shot because you can't get a job. So, why would I pay $thousands for classes or a degree, when most employers will deem it inadequate?
If you happen to find an "entry level job" or a "junior level job," you're competing against many folk, people who just graduated (who may be cheaper, or at least that's what an employer sees) or people who actually have experience.
The 2.6 number you state is only a lower bound. Even the 5.1 number is low. How many people are willing to just get out of their current job because they haven't seen a raise in years?
So, it's definitely a buyers market. Companies feel that they can wait for the purple squirrel.
Back in late 2010, a Member of the original Unemployed Friends Forum started a thread which attracted a lot of posts, viewpoints . . . and vitriol.
The original poster had written that he had had a financially-unaffected family member (I think maybe it was his brother) who had little empathy for the OP's being unemployed for so long, and at one point when the OP was discussing the struggle of the 99ers/exhaustees to petition congress to extend EUC, his brother had cut him off in mid-sentence with this curt rebuff:
". . . . The Government Does Not Owe You a Living."
The OP chose to make his brother's rebuff be the title of his thread. Anyway, a few of the posts that I have read on this thread kind of reminded me of that old thread from almost four years ago.
Back in late 2010, a Member of the original Unemployed Friends Forum started a thread which attracted a lot of posts, viewpoints . . . and vitriol.
The original poster had written that he had had a financially-unaffected family member (I think maybe it was his brother) who had little empathy for the OP's being unemployed for so long, and at one point when the OP was discussing the struggle of the 99ers/exhaustees to petition congress to extend EUC, his brother had cut him off in mid-sentence with this curt rebuff:
". . . . The Government Does Not Owe You a Living."
The OP chose to make his brother's rebuff be the title of his thread. Anyway, a few of the posts that I have read on this thread kind of reminded me of that old thread from almost four years ago.
Hearts&Minds
The government does not owe jobs to individuals but it does owe the nation as a whole a healthy situation in which those of good character and at least minimal competence for a job have a good chance of getting and maintaining jobs.
The people who spout such crass terms like "no one owes you anything" and "the government does not owe you a living" I believe simply feel empowered by such statements as they can get a good rush by kicking someone who is down. I highly doubt anyone rebukes what the rich b-tch about with "hey richboy, life isn't easy".
No one in their right minds thinks or says "I'm owed..." unless s/he indebted someone else.
With all this said, a government IS indebted or obligated (whatever term preferred) to its citizens. Otherwise what the hell is the point of having a government?! Right now we have politicians who only care about getting elected, and that's it, citizens (except for rich ones) be damned!
The government does not owe jobs to individuals but it does owe the nation as a whole a healthy situation in which those of good character and at least minimal competence for a job have a good chance of getting and maintaining jobs.
The people who spout such crass terms like "no one owes you anything" and "the government does not owe you a living" I believe simply feel empowered by such statements as they can get a good rush by kicking someone who is down. I highly doubt anyone rebukes what the rich b-tch about with "hey richboy, life isn't easy".
No one in their right minds thinks or says "I'm owed..." unless s/he indebted someone else.
With all this said, a government IS indebted or obligated (whatever term preferred) to its citizens. Otherwise what the hell is the point of having a government?! Right now we have politicians who only care about getting elected, and that's it, citizens (except for rich ones) be damned!
It's the foolish voters that put politicians in office that send jobs out of the country or bring in the third world labor that will do the work more cheaply. People elected the politician that signed the NAFTA deal and opened up the jobs going to China. Until there are wiser voters, the corporations will get unlimited cheap labor. Americans are being quickly replaced and allowing their politicians to sell them out.
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