Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Working for pay under the table - I'm sure that'll work out well for a documented US citizen... the IRS will come down on you like a ton of bricks. Also, they are working for a wage so low that's it not practical to live on it unless you also exploit every social program available, evade taxes (as mentioned before) and so on.
So... unless you're advocating MORE corruption in the system, this won't work. Also, I don't see you volunteering for this position. Ah, but your "skills" make you more deserving of a nice job than the people who are out of work... with the same skills as you... right. Why, it's almost as if there aren't enough jobs to go around? I'm sure nobody has mentioned that before... or so it would seem based on the replies.
I just love how people around here will sooner volunteer their fellow countrymen to live like an illegal alien while at the same time refusing to even consider that some worthless, grossly overpaid toad of an executive might deserve a pay hit to bring some real jobs back to this nation. Just keep worshiping that guy with his boot on your neck... smart move!
I didn't say he should neglect to fill out a tax return. He should work for money, and report the income, and pay the taxes if applicable.
You and everyone agreeing with you is utterly wrong. The job market is full of jobs. Full of them. I don't want to see phony fake fraudulent stats generated by the collectivist club to make it look like the sky is falling.
The sky is not falling. The sky is the limit. I don't want to hear about no jobs. We have 94% employment. Go to the Empire State Building at 9AM and scan for 360 degrees. You will see millions of busy humans working and earning paychecks and taking care of business. The roads and sidewalks and elevators and donut shops and lobbies are filled wall-to-wall with busy humans taking care of business. Every day. All day. And most of the night!. You can't even move or drive or hop a bus or train without bumping into workers, workers, and more workers. Join them. Do something! And if no one will hire you, start a business and hire yourself.
"Oh but I can't", he whined. This is against me and that is against me and you can't do this without doing that, and people think if you are this, then that prevents A, B, C, and D. So E is impossible and the 1% are getting paid millions and billions to do nothing at my expense. Externalizing a problem and assigning blame does not solve it. It perpetuates it.
If an illegal alien can stand on a street corner in a foreign world and make $10/hr working construction sites and restaurants and painting and landscaping, then what am I to say to complacent whiners with an Internet connection who spend the day idly complaining to the Universe at large about how unfair it all is?
I haven't the foggiest, that's in your head, not mine. But it does indicate that I haven't explained my remark clearly on the first attempt.
The remark on "inconsistent" was more that you fellas sound like you're fresh out of whatever the OWS crowd is up to these days, and the relatively recent observer who has just waded through 25 or more pages of strawman arguments is surprised by an almost Cruzian sounding view of the immigration policy. It amuses me.... that is all. I don't expect you (or rambler, to whom my remark was made) to find my remarks consistent either, feel free to point that out to me later
Write it off as a dumb off the cuff comment and let it pass. Obviously fell flat, sure isn't the first time
Hmmm... Actually, I'm more in favor of cracking down the companies that employ the illegals. I actually have nothing against the illegal aliens personally if their only crime is breaking the law to come here to try to find a better life since, let's face it, as bad as things are here, they are child's play compared to life in much of Mexico and other buggered up places. Now, the illegals that are serious criminals - robbery, assault, stealing people's SS#, etc. - yeah, they should be dealt with according to the law.
If the companies that were exploiting them for cheap labor - and thus also denying jobs to the lower-rung of once employable Americans - were forbidden from doing so (say... by enforcing the laws on the books), the problem would solve itself for the most part. Many of the illegals would go home (or be sent back once they have no work), and those who stayed would eventually become citizens. At that point, they would have to integrate into our culture and would no longer be making a tiny bit of money under the table as part of a scheme to lower labor rates.
America has had plenty of waves of immigrants before, and they are often exploited as cheap labor. That doesn't make it right, and this is doubly so when actual American citizens are out of work. That being said, with proper enforcement of the laws, an effort to bring jobs back to Americans, and work being done to integrate those who chose to stay and become citizens, it should work out. For example, years ago, Irish, Italians, Asians, and so forth were all the cheap, exploited labor of their day... but you don't find millions of them as undocumented workers being paid under the table for pennies on the dollar today.
If on the job training is a thing of the past, then executives cannot complain about talent shortages.
Especially when they can't find the right person. There is only so much talent in the pipeline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryManback
In any given society at any time, there is a subset of the population that is unemployable. There is no employer that can find them of any use to him. The employable class pays for it in one way or another. Either they pay the social cost of having people living and dying on our streets, or they pay for them to be taken care of by public or private institutions so they're not living and dying on our streets. I know that sounds crass, but it's a reality in this cruel world.
In the past, the unemployable class has been people with severe mental or physical disabilities. But even some people with mental or physical disabilities were employable. There were menial jobs for them. Now, technology has been rapidly eliminating menial desk jobs and menial physical labor. The unemployable class is growing. You need to be smarter and healthier these days to meet the minimum level of usefulness to the economy. And if your work experience becomes irrelevant because of technology/outsourcing/etc., you might be in a quagmire because on-the-job training is a thing of the past.
What do we as a society do with people who can't be a part of the natural working world? We have to pay for it somehow. We can give them "charity jobs", basically pay for them to dig holes and fill them back up. A lot of government sectors are essentially jobs programs that do just that. What's the point, though? Might as well send people a check for doing nothing. Believe it or not, Libertarian economists and social scientists like Milton Friedman and Charles Murray have advocated this.
I do agree with you. The issue or these lost workers is as many libertarian economists are in favor of "charity jobs" there are a number who say they shouldn't because it is wasteful spending and doesn't help the economy.
You and everyone agreeing with you is utterly wrong. The job market is full of jobs. Full of them. I don't want to see phony fake fraudulent stats generated by the collectivist club to make it look like the sky is falling.
Got it - the facts disagree with your preconceived notions, so you don't want to see them anymore. Sorry if reality gets in the way of your angry "get a job!" scream-fest. I'm sure that many of the unemployed never considered that getting a job might help them out. Any other bright ideas?
I love that you believe the Bureau of Labor Statistics - the one that came up with that 2.6 people out of work per job opening using the optimistic U3 unemployment number - is some sort of "collectivist club" even though they use actual data vs. beliefs grounded in nothing to draw their conclusions.
Or, to sum up: "Currently job openings stand at 3,974,000. This is in stark contrast to the 10.5 million official unemployed"
Figure out a way to make those two numbers equal yet, or are we just going to get more rants about how "you saw a bunch of illegals on a street corner painting a house, so clearly there are enough jobs for everyone!" Because I'm sure your random, unverifiable single data point is FAR more reliable than actual statistics that cover the nation.
Believe whatever nonsense you want. Just make it up as you go. Like I said before, discussing the facts with people who don't get it is like explaining algebra to a potted plant. A complete waste of time.
Last edited by Rambler123; 03-14-2014 at 04:14 PM..
I didn't say he should neglect to fill out a tax return. He should work for money, and report the income, and pay the taxes if applicable.
You and everyone agreeing with you is utterly wrong. The job market is full of jobs. Full of them. I don't want to see phony fake fraudulent stats generated by the collectivist club to make it look like the sky is falling.
The sky is not falling. The sky is the limit. I don't want to hear about no jobs. We have 94% employment. Go to the Empire State Building at 9AM and scan for 360 degrees. You will see millions of busy humans working and earning paychecks and taking care of business. The roads and sidewalks and elevators and donut shops and lobbies are filled wall-to-wall with busy humans taking care of business. Every day. All day. And most of the night!. You can't even move or drive or hop a bus or train without bumping into workers, workers, and more workers. Join them. Do something! And if no one will hire you, start a business and hire yourself.
"Oh but I can't", he whined. This is against me and that is against me and you can't do this without doing that, and people think if you are this, then that prevents A, B, C, and D. So E is impossible and the 1% are getting paid millions and billions to do nothing at my expense. Externalizing a problem and assigning blame does not solve it. It perpetuates it.
If an illegal alien can stand on a street corner in a foreign world and make $10/hr working construction sites and restaurants and painting and landscaping, then what am I to say to complacent whiners with an Internet connection who spend the day idly complaining to the Universe at large about how unfair it all is?
Ok then, my education and job experience has been in computer science/programming.
I am considering taking night class(es) to "brush up my skills." I am also considering taking a certification exam or two. But I have a feeling that it will be futile as many employers in the area want "professional experience" as opposed to "classroom experience."
I also am volunteering at the local humane society doing some system/network administration for them. I am learning a ton because I actually am getting some access to Cisco switches and the like. But again, it's not enough for many employers.
I also try to do other tinkering on my own time related to computing. I attend various user groups to learn stuff and network. I put some code on github and have asked/answered questions on stack exchange.
It's not that I'm adverse to putting in the extra work, as my track record indicates, and I am willing to take entry/junior level work/pay in order to advance my career in something new. I am also willing to move for the right job - but don't expect me to move to SF for $35K. [True story - I have had a recruiter bait and switch me, asking me to consider a job in NYC but then asked if I wanted to move abroad. I wouldn't be opposed to it in the right situation, and that automatically means that he's submitting me one of the positions in Singapore. I would have to agree to move there for 2+ years. And I would have to take 2 days off from my current employer to interview in NYC and then fly to Signapore. I don't have that kind of time to take off from work and fly all over kingdom come for a job I may not take.]
My mother even put me in touch with a former recruiter/job coach from her church to help me with my resume/interviewing skills.
In short, I feel like I am leaving no stone unturned.
Again, how is someone like me making excuses? What more should I be doing, oh wise one?
Got it - the facts disagree with your nutty notions, so you don't want to see them anymore. Sorry if reality gets in the way of your crazy "get a job!" scream-fest. I'm sure that many of the unemployed never considered that getting a job might help them out. Any other bright ideas?
I love that you believe the Bureau of Labor Statistics - the one that came up with that 2.6 people out of work per job opening using the optimistic U3 unemployment number - is some sort of "collectivist club" even though they use actual data vs. beliefs grounded in nothing to draw their conclusions.
Or, to sum up: "Currently job openings stand at 3,974,000. This is in stark contrast to the 10.5 million official unemployed"
Figure out a way to make those two numbers equal yet, or are we just going to get more crazy screams about how "you saw a bunch of illegals on a street corner painting a house, so clearly there are enough jobs for everyone!" Because I'm sure your random, unverifiable single data point is FAR more reliable than actual statistics that cover the nation.
Believe whatever nonsense you want. Just make it up as you go. Like I said before, discussing the facts with people who don't get it is like explaining algebra to a potted plant. A complete waste of time.
But, in practice, it's a lopsided agreement. The employer can fire you for any reason, but you can't quit for any reason because you won't get another job unless you have a good explanation for why you left your previous one.
This makes no sense at all. You can quit a job for any reason. When you interview, all you have to tell the interviewer is that you quit to look for new opportunities or you wanted to transition to a new field or whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
Or, maybe they can all "start their own business!" despite the near certainty of failure? Any ideas? Anyone?
At what point do we acknowledge that action need to be taken to bring the jobs back to this nation? At what point do we stop turning a blind eye to companies employing illegals and replacing Americans with visa workers because it's cheaper? When do we stop exploiting near-slaves in 3rd world nations because it lets some fat-cat get a bigger bonus? When do we stop selling out our neighbor for excess profits that will never help most of us in any way?
Sadly, I know the answer... Most people, so long as they are not part of that 4 out of 5 unemployed workers who literally will not be able to get a job simply don't care... and yet they'll defend the "rights" of those at top to exploit them to the last.
1. Life comes with risk. Starting a business is risky. Risk is related to rewards. Sure, most businesses will fail. But look at what happens when a business makes it. A person or a business cannot be successful if they don't at least take a risk and try.
America is full of stories of people who started small and made it big.
BUT, you keep mentioning outsourcing. Are you saying that only Americans are owed jobs? Other humans aren't owed anything despite the fat they have families to feed also?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheQuestioner
As part of that owed justice, every person is owed and entitled to (yes, let's go ahead and put another popular word in there) an opportunity to work that at least provides a minimal standard of living fit for a modern human.
Who doesn't have the opportunity to work? Anyone can apply for a job, seek education, and training, etc. Are you saying that jobs should be just handed out to everyone even if they aren't qualified, have the necessary skills, or just cant do the job?
The other thing is that the situation is really more bleak than outlined (the 2.6 people out of work per job opening.)
While there are always some people out of work who are truly unemployable, that 2.6 number uses the U3 unemployment rate, one that is widely considered overly optimistic. Using the U6 number, you end up with about 5 people who are either out of work, grossly underemployed, or other wise "marginally attached" to the workforce per job opening, which is horrible.
Then, you factor in what you're getting at - how many job openings are basically never going to be filled since they are looking for "purple squirrels," hiring internal people, refusing to hire the unemployed, only posting the job so they can then hire a visa worker instead, and the situation is staggeringly bad.
And then we get ding-dongs on here telling us that they don't want to hear the facts and there clearly are enough jobs for everyone because he saw an team of illegal aliens mowing some lawns.
The failure in reasoning there is astounding, but I also love the belief that instead of perhaps doing something about the illegals to at least bring some jobs back, we should instead have American live as illegals! Unreal... anything to deny the problem and avoid bring the jobs back if doing so would slightly inconvenience some corporate big-wig.
Hmmm... Actually, I'm more in favor of cracking down the companies that employ the illegals. I actually have nothing against the illegal aliens personally if their only crime is breaking the law to come here to try to find a better life since, let's face it, as bad as things are here, they are child's play compared to life in much of Mexico and other buggered up places. Now, the illegals that are serious criminals - robbery, assault, stealing people's SS#, etc. - yeah, they should be dealt with according to the law.
Well that's a relief! (though perhaps no one will understand why I say so! )
If you've never had a job in your life, it is taken personally and rightfully so. I want to further my education. But it's like I said, every option I think I have or people think I have is out of reach. Unless I was to move to a big city with lots of job openings and a low unemployment rate and a sane population who have communication skills, act professional and respect other human beings. Or obtain a car and a way to pay the insurance on it. The resume stuff is moot at this point. There is nothing to put on it, that is why the jobs I apply for have applications. I need companies that actually call people for interviews, actually interview people, act respectful, and actually hire the people they interview. Not just say they will call at a later time.
Employers that won't go psycho when I follow up on an application, something they SUPPOSEDLY want people to do!
I need a job. I need a start. Otherwise it's like an ant trying to climb mount everest.
What skills do you have and where do you live?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
