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that's how I feel about UBI... you can give it to everyone but it doesn't mean they will improve their education/skill set
Sure they will. Human beings are naturally curious. Most people will want to learn -- only not jsut for a "job" but because it truly interests them...and they will be good at it since it's their love.
Right now, most people in any field of work are only minimally competent because they really don't care for their jobs. UBI will free people to do what they really want to do -- a classic case of economic efficiency.
[quote=MLSFan;50247367]everyone's version of UBI has no "conditions" attached to it. Mine would be you report in for a "job"/training/etc (public service) and at the end of the day you can have your UBI money or you can find a job on your own terms
but this would be govt mandated jobs and a better minimum wage... so to me, we don't need UBI, we need a better system of what we have now, minimum wage/job expectation/current welfare system
You fail to understand UB
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLSFan
I believe in personal freedom, not govt funded freedom.
LOL -- check out some places without a functioning government and see how much "personal freedom" there is.
The whole point of government is to literally fund freedom! Even the ChiComs have tacitly acknowledged that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLSFan
If people want to be free, they are free to be poor if they choose to through lack of action, but don't expect govt to bail them out
It's not simply a lack of action, however...the whole reason why UBI is so seriously considered now is because the economy's so changed as to preclude work sufficient for a living for evermore people.
On a personal aside, MLSFan, I honestly believe that you're deliberately misconstruing UBI to yourself in order to satisfy some "hidden interest"...you've only been raising strawmen and I don't think it's because you're genuinely ignorant of UBI.
So let's just cut to the chase here and address what your real concern is, shall we?
I think this topic and discussion is lost on you. You don't seem to understand the context in which UBI is being considered for. I'd suggest you actually do some research on how UBI is being discussed.
I think MLSFan is deliberately, even if unconsciously, misconstruing UBI -- the question is why...what would he stand to lose, exactly?
Now if he were some capitalist (even if only petite bourgeoisie like a petrol station owner) or would-be capitalist, I could understand. If he were racist or elitist, I could understand. Perhaps he just likes being contrarian for the sake of being contrary -- it's an adolescent stance but perhaps that's where he's at developmentally. Any other reasons besides those?
Also technically Alaska already has UBI to an extant, funded by their oil industry. Each resident gets paid $2,000 every year. However a true UBI will take another step forward. Also I heard that Arab countries such as the UAE pays lots of money to their citizens as well, all funded by oil as well.
It's certainly universal so it's got the "U" in "UBI" but it's nowhere near basic -- as in enough for the basics -- so Alaska's really not a good example.
Arab countries provide guaranteed "show jobs" (with highly artificial "make-work") for their citizens, not UBI as such, so also actually not a good example.
Educated society have less kids if there is no basic income because they know that having said kids will produce hardship even though their biological imparitive (mostly with women) is knawing at them.
Introduce free money (especially if the kids get a basic income as well) and the biological knawing will win.
I do wonder about that but financial concerns isn't the only reason folks don't have kids -- "educated" folks tend to have less kids, and of those who choose not to have any, almost all of them are "educated."
I believe that with education, the population will naturally stabilize and even draw down -- my concern is what happens in the short term, right after UBI is finally adopted...how's UBI going to account for the inevitable population explosion (since, TBH, the lower classes tend to have no greater purpose in life than merely mindlessly procreating), short-term (decades, still, though) as such a catastrophe may be??
[quote=HomelessLoser;50264864]Sure they will. Human beings are naturally curious. Most people will want to learn -- only not jsut for a "job" but because it truly interests them...and they will be good at it since it's their love.
Right now, most people in any field of work are only minimally competent because they really don't care for their jobs. UBI will free people to do what they really want to do -- a classic case of economic efficiency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MLSFan
everyone's version of UBI has no "conditions" attached to it. Mine would be you report in for a "job"/training/etc (public service) and at the end of the day you can have your UBI money or you can find a job on your own terms
but this would be govt mandated jobs and a better minimum wage... so to me, we don't need UBI, we need a better system of what we have now, minimum wage/job expectation/current welfare system
You fail to understand UB
LOL -- check out some places without a functioning government and see how much "personal freedom" there is.
The whole point of government is to literally fund freedom! Even the ChiComs have tacitly acknowledged that.
It's not simply a lack of action, however...the whole reason why UBI is so seriously considered now is because the economy's so changed as to preclude work sufficient for a living for evermore people.
On a personal aside, MLSFan, I honestly believe that you're deliberately misconstruing UBI to yourself in order to satisfy some "hidden interest"...you've only been raising strawmen and I don't think it's because you're genuinely ignorant of UBI.
So let's just cut to the chase here and address what your real concern is, shall we?
What would you lose if there were UBI?
Money> I'd have to pay for it.
Innovation> No need to better ourselves, just hang out with hands out. No new products, no improvements, no education needed for anything. People will get even DUMBER than they are now.
Productive lives > No need to do anything because it's just handed to people.
Independence > Nothing is free. What stipulations would go along with the UBI handout? What restrictions will be placed on people who receive UBI?
Big questions. I'd rather work for a living and make my own decisions and have my freedom.
I have no problem with Universal Basic Income for a Universal Basic Job.
That's not UBI, then -- indeed, UBI's being so seriously considered at this particular point in history due to the changing economy...which will only change evermore drastically (and adversely WRT number of jobs).
I have no problem with Universal Basic Income for a Universal Basic Job.
That's not UBI, then -- indeed, UBI's being so seriously considered at this particular point in history due to the changing economy...which will only change evermore drastically (and adversely WRT the number of jobs).
Becasue we rely so much on our jobs for our income we cant even smoke weed either without risking a job loss which is pretty pitiful.
What's pitiful is that people feel they need to depend on drugs -- so much so as to not even put that SugarHoneyIcedTea away for a living!
Really, it's sad mind-altering substances are so sought-after. I see this in the homeless shelters all the time...morons don't have enough for socks or underwear but somehow are able to make sure they have their weed/smack/nicotine/caffeine/sugar/WorldHipHopStar....
So yeah, I keep wondering about the "freeloaders," as I call them, in UBI...such folks will wreck UBI, I'm afraid -- they're going to smoke their UBI up and still be on the streets stinking up the subways and being a nuisance whining about just needing "a chance" and just wanting money for "coffee"...really, what's to be done about the morons in our midst?? They'll just blow their UBI money and still be homeless and drug-addled....
That's not UBI, then -- indeed, UBI's being so seriously considered at this particular point in history due to the changing economy...which will only change evermore drastically (and adversely WRT number of jobs).
When I said "Universal Basic Job" you probably conjured up an image of a traditional 40 hours per week job in an office or factory. In a world of automation there would still be manual work, just not enough to go around going by the traditional standard. Your universal job could be more like a task, maybe just 4 hours per week, doing things that are not feasible to automate and would pay too low to be worth doing as a supplement. Call it community service.
I think a requirement for some type of community service or volunteering would be a good idea in theory, but it would then require some type of administration to oversee that, so it wouldn't work out well logistically. I really think that most people WOULD contribute by volunteering and doing community service. I don't really know anyone who prefers to just sit at home doing absolutely nothing all the time. Humans are social creatures, and most get some type of interaction at work or through volunteering.
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