Will we need a universal basic income in the future? (free market, payment)
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there ARE jobs, the people who seem to want UBI are people who don't want to do those jobs because they look down at them or think they are entitled to a better job
they are either too lazy to do them or think they should be paid more to do it, that has nothing to do with there being no jobs
so you think in a world where more and more diseases are being cured, where the cost of living keeps going up, where service jobs can no longer provide an above poverty level lifestyle, and where more and more jobs are being eliminated... that there will be enough live able wage jobs available? come on now...
I grew up in the PJ's poor... it sounds nice in theory to tell everyone to get an education and get a high paying job... but the reality is, there simply aren't enough of those jobs around for everyone. THat's the reality...
so you think in a world where more and more diseases are being cured, where the cost of living keeps going up, where service jobs can no longer provide an above poverty level lifestyle, and where more and more jobs are being eliminated... that there will be enough live able wage jobs available? come on now...
I grew up in the PJ's poor... it sounds nice in theory to tell everyone to get an education and get a high paying job... but the reality is, there simply aren't enough of those jobs around for everyone. THat's the reality...
why does it have to be high paying? they aren't going to be rich with ubi, they won't be rich with a normal paying job either but they won't be poor
ubi is not some magic solution where no one is going to be poor
I think the Soviets, Chinese, and others tried this. Also slavery usually involves basic living standards.
Here is the clincher to all you would be socialist who love this concept. Google "elite quotes population reduction" or similar. Interesting what the "thinkers" really think. You think the men behind the curtain will just float millions of people out of the goodness of their hearts? They are already talking about how there are too many people on the earth. Your basic income will come with ever growing attachments involved if you intend to live off solely that. Certain behaviors limited. Growing demands to become more and more of a better "citizen" or "global citizen" by things like not having kids and not exceeding your daily calorie and electricity rations.
You can get a free lunch, but it might cost you your soul in the end. Better to get a skill and stay free, and to encourage people who don't have skills in demand that they are mistaken if the powers that be will be happy to float them forever.
Automation coming into play does not mean instant post-scarcity economics. No, it means many's labor will we be redundant, and as resources continue to become strained guess who loses...
Robots can grow food, but it doesn't necessarily mean the instant creation of more arable land. Increased efficiency from automation does mean increased production for less, but it doesn't automatically mean more things like rare earths are instantly created to fuel production booms. Automation means efficiency and less labor. It does not mean it will auto keep up with demand for goods. And, as fewer and fewer people own production, their priorities of what to produce may not be yours nor for the benefit of the greater good.
Sure the powers that be will be happy to buy your votes off with "basic income"...that is until their power becomes solidified and they no longer need you. Then an army of dupes becomes a herd of "useless eaters" as they refer to you. If you have a farm and your farm animals are no longer good for milking or eating what do you do with them? And the elite of the world absolutely view the world as "their farm" and you being an animal.
Don't let smooth worlds and promises of easy street cause you to sell yourself or your descendants out to a new form of slavery that eventual death for a free phone, section 8 housing, and access to easy drugs that just happen to be available almost everywhere even though the government is waging a "war" against drugs in the tune of billions of dollars each year.
if i could get $24,000 as basic government income, why should i work at all. i could live great off the government teat, why do i even need to get out of bed at all, what drive do i need
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia
Um, because you'd like to own a nice house, drive a new car, go on fun vacations, engage in expensive hobbies, eat out at restaurants, and so on? If you're content with the lifestyle that $24K can provide then stay in bed.
This ^^
If you want kids, nicer things like video games, luxury cars, etc. IIRC, 1 or 2 of the Nordic countries does this, but people are still motivated to do better because they want better. Basic income gives them the foundation to achieve that.
Reasons not covered, but I'm sure apply to C-D forum posters...
--Pride
People cite showing up on time, with a smile and "go to" attitude as something that they're proud of. Well, if you really feel that way, then get a job, and the nicer lifestyle you can afford will happen to be that bonus reward
--learning new things
That's what I've been doing at my last few jobs
--also, you're already living off government services
Taxes aren't always able to cover for everything.
why does it have to be high paying? they aren't going to be rich with ubi, they won't be rich with a normal paying job either but they won't be poor
ubi is not some magic solution where no one is going to be poor
because a $25 an hour job doesn't cut it in a lot of places like where I live. Unless you want a room with 3 other roommates.
Of course there will still be poor people, but they will in theory have basic needs met and not be rioting on the streets and stealing. I seriously doubt most people would be ok with just living at poverty level though. So MOST people would still try to work and educate themselves. If I had 24k per year UBI I would still look to work and improve myself as most people would because 24k isn't going to provide for anything more than the most basic lifestyle.
because a $25 an hour job doesn't cut it in a lot of places like where I live. Unless you want a room with 3 other roommates.
Of course there will still be poor people, but they will in theory have basic needs met and not be rioting on the streets and stealing. I seriously doubt most people would be ok with just living at poverty level though. So MOST people would still try to work and educate themselves. If I had 24k per year UBI I would still look to work and improve myself as most people would because 24k isn't going to provide for anything more than the most basic lifestyle.
if $25/hr doesn't cut it for people without roommates, and what people consider "decent" living is not having roommates
how much is this ubi of yours? if $50k doesn't cut it, then how much?
are you basing ubi funding the "basic" living of someone making $0,25, or $100/hr and acting as "supplemental income"?
if $25/hr doesn't cut it for people without roommates, and what people consider "decent" living is not having roommates
how much is this ubi of yours? if $50k doesn't cut it, then how much?
are you basing ubi funding the "basic" living of someone making $0,25, or $100/hr and acting as "supplemental income"?
with a UBI people would be free to move to other parts of the country where COL is cheaper... right now people flock to NY, SF and big cities in search of high paying jobs... maybe a UBI would alleviate some of that too and allow people to live in cheaper areas without having to worry about finding a job. Poor people in NY would have a choice to go elsewhere where they could afford a proper apartment instead of living with a bunch of roommates.
I think the Soviets, Chinese, and others tried this. Also slavery usually involves basic living standards.
An old conservative/reactionary canard...conservatives and reactionaires throw "slavery" and "freedom" around all the time in Orwellian double-speak but only the uninformed are misled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by infocyde
Here is the clincher to all you would be socialist who love this concept. Google "elite quotes population reduction" or similar. Interesting what the "thinkers" really think. You think the men behind the curtain will just float millions of people out of the goodness of their hearts? They are already talking about how there are too many people on the earth.
And indeed there are -- population management is a mercy, a good, the sensible thing to do for an intelligent species. We're on the cusp of directing our very own evolution via genetic engineering and General A.I. resulting in cyborgs, after all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by infocyde
Your basic income will come with ever growing attachments involved if you intend to live off solely that.
That's not what UBI is about at all, and while I sincerely appreciate your exploration of possible pitfalls (as I myself earnestly try doing), you're not dealing in UBI with your fears there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by infocyde
Certain behaviors limited. Growing demands to become more and more of a better "citizen" or "global citizen" by things like not having kids and not exceeding your daily calorie and electricity rations.
Again, tahat's not what UBI is about at all, though I welcome honest and rigorous exploration of possible pitfalls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by infocyde
You can get a free lunch, but it might cost you your soul in the end. Better to get a skill and stay free, and to encourage people who don't have skills in demand that they are mistaken if the powers that be will be happy to float them forever.
Automation coming into play does not mean instant post-scarcity economics. No, it means many's labor will we be redundant, and as resources continue to become strained guess who loses...
Robots can grow food, but it doesn't necessarily mean the instant creation of more arable land. Increased efficiency from automation does mean increased production for less, but it doesn't automatically mean more things like rare earths are instantly created to fuel production booms. Automation means efficiency and less labor. It does not mean it will auto keep up with demand for goods. And, as fewer and fewer people own production, their priorities of what to produce may not be yours nor for the benefit of the greater good.
Sure the powers that be will be happy to buy your votes off with "basic income"...that is until their power becomes solidified and they no longer need you. Then an army of dupes becomes a herd of "useless eaters" as they refer to you. If you have a farm and your farm animals are no longer good for milking or eating what do you do with them? And the elite of the world absolutely view the world as "their farm" and you being an animal.
Don't let smooth worlds and promises of easy street cause you to sell yourself or your descendants out to a new form of slavery that eventual death for a free phone, section 8 housing, and access to easy drugs that just happen to be available almost everywhere even though the government is waging a "war" against drugs in the tune of billions of dollars each year.
Think.
Honestly, you're like a Black Lives Matter protester who takes an otherwise clear-cut incident and magnifies it all out of proportion (i.e., distorting it).
with a UBI people would be free to move to other parts of the country where COL is cheaper... right now people flock to NY, SF and big cities in search of high paying jobs... maybe a UBI would alleviate some of that too and allow people to live in cheaper areas without having to worry about finding a job. Poor people in NY would have a choice to go elsewhere where they could afford a proper apartment instead of living with a bunch of roommates.
so... they can afford to live in the rural area but they choose to go to high col where they can get paid more?
exactly how is this different than what they do today? it isn't like they can't afford to live in the rural areas, but they choose not to
it isn't "expensive" to live today in low col areas, people do it on social security, about $1200-1500... they can make that on the current minimum wage
ubi didn't do anything to change their desire of high living in the big city
An old conservative/reactionary canard...conservatives and reactionaires throw "slavery" and "freedom" around all the time in Orwellian double-speak but only the uninformed are misled.
[Fascinating. I find the left often uses Orwellian double-speak to great effect. We are viewing things from two different angles...none of your tagging of my points with disfavorable semiotics negates my points.]
And indeed there are -- population management is a mercy, a good, the sensible thing to do for an intelligent species. We're on the cusp of directing our very own evolution via genetic engineering and General A.I. resulting in cyborgs, after all!
[Now that is great Orwellian double-speak...see how it will be sold? You are giving up freedom for Gaia...don't slow down the wonderful utopia that SOME will partake in...but not you...]
That's not what UBI is about at all, and while I sincerely appreciate your exploration of possible pitfalls (as I myself earnestly try doing), you're not dealing in UBI with your fears there.
[So you are interested in exploring the pitfalls, but possible (and already discussed) pitfalls that you don't like you will play off as personal "fears" by your detractors...gotacha]
Again, tahat's not what UBI is about at all, though I welcome honest and rigorous exploration of possible pitfalls.
[UBI isn't how you define it nor how you want it. Who is pushing it? What is the demonstration of human altruism on a grand scale in humanity's past? Pretty dismal...but we will do it right this time correct? ]
Honestly, you're like a Black Lives Matter protester who takes an otherwise clear-cut incident and magnifies it all out of proportion (i.e., distorting it).
[That is quite a leap. Again semiotic tagging. I would argue you are JUST LIKE the budding young socialist who drank the cool aid in previous attempts to make a great society. Just with more tech thrown in. Wasn't the industrial revolution supposed to do most of the things you are now claiming automation will do? Hmmm? ]
In the end, I'm not trying to convince the die-hards. They will do their duty for humanity and gaia giving up their freedoms, marching into their new "sustainable" hovels in order to get hand outs, and as you put it being "population managed". That is not what "UBI" means to you. But that is really what it means to those who often push it from the top, if you take the time to really listen. Those who will will, those who buy the psyop, well good luck...
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