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I'm following this thread very closely. This is one of the very reasons why we are considering a move to Wyoming. We have a nice life where we are. Good job, nice house, lots of family around. But things are changing without question. Politically, and just in general, the social climate nationally and internationally are negatively intensifying greatly IMO. I'm thinking long term as well. Where can I be where people believe in the same principles I do and will to the best of their abilities provide an environment where people can live and be free and raise their children in a proper environment?
I have believed for about a year now that with all the political unrest, that Wyoming would be a state that would/could stand up to the federal government and one of less than a handful of states who would/could pull off succession. I know it's a long shot but I'm tuned in. I wonder how a state like Wyoming will react as the federal government continues to control more and more of our lives. I think it will happen slow and therefore will gather more people who accept "business as usual" but I hope not.
Thanks to the original poster, Molon labe. for starting this post. I read your post and told my wife, "This guy and I should be best friends!" She read it and swore that I wrote. Then she realized that he was much more articulate than me...LOL.
Wyoming is a small sparsely populated state, I don't see how it has any hope of standing up against the might of the Federal Government, and it has no legal basis that I can see for a succession. The remaining states have a huge investment in Wyoming through years of federal aid, not to mention that the rest of the country needs the natural resources in Wyoming and legally they belong to the Federal Government. There no conceivable way that they will ever give that up.
Ok... so I've been speaking with some of our reps, and there is one HUGE problem here- The feds own 75% of the mineral rights and 50% of the surface of Wyoming. THAT is how they force us to comply with a lot of things they want. Does anybody have any idea how to take that land and pull it back into state ownership and keep the fedgov out of our state?
As I have decumented in other posts, the land and resources belonged to the United States long before there ever was a "Territory of Wyoming" so how can Wyoming take back something that they never owned to begin with?
The quickest way to make a significant change at the federal government level is to have a constitutional convention. A constitutional convention can be called by 2/3 of the States. If at least two-thirds of the legislatures of the states so request, Congress is required to call a convention for the purpose of proposing amendments. See article V of the Constitution.
This power was given to the States to keep the federal governments powers in check.
This could be organized relatively quickly.
Any thoughts???
There isn't enough discontent for that to happen in our lifetimes.
Those are details that can be worked out.
FDIC is insurance funded by banks/depositors. Highways could be taken over by the state and be funded by gas taxes/tire taxes. Generally wouldn't be different than the fed doing it. Wyo is in the center of the US, nobody could attack it without first attacking the US. Besides, Wyo has a national guard. It may be small but I'll put 10 wyo soldiers up against 1 soldier from just about anywhere else. Technically Wyo has nukes, the biggest ones in the world.
IMO, a confederation would serve wyo best. Out and out secession would work, but I dont thing it would be best. Wyo has a tremendous amount in common with the rest of the US and is surrounded by it. Confederation is the way to go. But it still would likely cause the Fed to attack wyo because in a confederation the Fed would lose a lot of control.
I agree, Wyoming is not powerful enough to pull this off, the rest of the country has too much to loose and would not stand for it.
I too have read the book mentioned, Molon Lobe, by Boston T. Party. It is a case study for WHY and HOW Wyoming could do "it" legally. It is deifnately a good read. And before anyone goes screaming to the Administrator, no, I do not nor am I in ANY way associated with, or receive ANY type of compensation for sales or recommendations of the book. Fair enough?
I am curious as to something a poster mentioned early in this thread. Why do you think Health Care is a right? I don't recall the United States Constitution mentioning anything about universal health care. I DO however, seem to recall a few "rights" as listed in the Bill of Rights. SOME of which include freedom of the press; freedom of speech; freedom of religion; the right to keep and bear arms; to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable search and siezure; the right to a speedy trial, just to name a few.
There are instances for EACH and EVERY one of these where the Right's of the people HAVE been violated, with impunity, by the Federal Government. I cannot find ANY reference to "free" health care from cradle-to-grave, and I have a copy of the Constitution in front of me. I'm sorry, I truly am, but your "right" to health care DOES NOT mean I have a "responsibility" to pay for it.
In the Declaration of Independance, it mentions 3 things that we'd ALL better take notice of and start to get our act together. Remember this piece of history: "All men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness".
Your God, whoever that may be, determines the extent and quality of your life. Maybe that's an "old fashioned" attitude and belief, but it is what it is. If you have a problem, take it up with Him, not MY tax rate to pay for your health care.
The Liberty of each and every one of us is at risk by the out of control Federal attempt to enslave us and future generations with an unpayable debt. And for what? "Stimulus" and Bailouts? Find THAT in the Constitutional authority of the Federal Government. This is only one example of the Federal trash that is being churned out under the guise of Law.
Further, every attempt to coral and control me (and YOU) is a violation of OUR right to the Pursuit of Happiness. I only want to be left the hell alone to work and live my life as a free man, as God intended and gave me a life to live. Everytime the "Tax-man" steals from me, "he" is further destroying my Pursuit of Happiness.
How will we defend our decision to let the gifts that God bestowed upon the greatest Nation on earth, in the history of man, to be taken and squandered while good men and women stood idly by and watched their birthright stolen and destroyed?
Wyoming can do BETTER than this folks. We ARE better than this. I only want a life for my children that is better than what I have/had. If we do nothing, what will we tell our children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren? HOW can we explain that?
I don't want my legacy, or the legacy of my generation, to be the loss and destruction of their freedom and liberty. I know this sounds cliche, but I would rather die a free man, than live as a slave, to anyone. THAT, is a legacy I can be proud of; as an American, as a man, as a citizen of the great State of Wyoming.
Yes health care is a basic right. How can anyone have Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, without good health? Throughout the history of civilizations mankind has banded together for the benefits that result from a community where people take care of each other. Health care is a fundamental need that has been put out of reach of the average citizen by corporate greed.
I don't want to be a part of a legacy that lets people suffer and die for lack of adequate health care.
More citizens are driven into poverty and bankruptcy every year as a result of health problems and the excessive costs charged by corporate healthcare greed then any other cause.
How can something that has never happened be a "fact"? You are greatly mistaken in your interpretation of historical trends, while there may be occasional set backs, the historical trend has always been towards greater unity and bonding together of communities and societies into larger more complex entities.
It is a fact. A large number of states seceded in the American Civil War and were put down. What you are imagining will never happen short of a total global meltdown and nuclear annihilation of society as we know it.
Several states seceded before the Civil war. It is a fact. The break up happened once. But war reversed it.
Historical Trend toward greater unity? You mean like the break up of the USSR, the breakup of India by the creation of Pakistan? Taiwan breaking off from China? Yugoslavia into serbia, bosnia, macedonia,croatia, slovenia and montenegro?
You're right, it never happens , especially not less than 20 years ago.
Wyoming is already paying less in income tax then it recieves in federal money. I don't see how Wyoming can take over all of these Federal responsibilities and do it more economically for it self. This suggests that this apporach would have to entail huge increases in property taxes on Wyoming citizens as well as the probably implementation of a much more expensive Wyoming State Income Tax.
I've seen the 1 to 1.11 (or whatever it is now) ratio of INCOME TAX paid in relation to federal dollars received. It would be just a little bit interesting to see what the real figure is when the REST of the revenue that leaves the state and heads for the feds is counted for.
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The government did not create the "problem" we are seeing in the medical industry, that is the result of unbridled greedy self interest and putting the pursuit of corporate profits ahead of human needs.
The whole purpose of people banning together to form communities and societies has always been because the whole is greater then the sum of the parts. The community as a whole does a better job of taking care of ALL of its members, including feeding them, providing child care and health care and defending the community.
Heaven forbid that any of us become sick with something as devastating as what mortisha has experienced. Do you really think anyone can "plan ahead for something in their life" like multiple sclerosis? Apparently in the Wyoming of the future that you envision we should cast these unfortunate people out into the wilderness and let the wolves take care of them.
A cold uncaring place like this is not a Wyoming I would ever want to be a part of. Nor do I believe that this reflects the mentality of the citizens of the Great State of Wyoming.
"Planning ahead" would involve things like major medical and long term care insurances... what insurance USED TO BE BEFORE THE FED GOV HELPED CREATE THE "HEALTH PLAN" WITH MEDICARE. You know... before everybody only cared about their copay and not what the actual cost of the procedure was? Remember... when physicians had to be good AND competitive so people would use their offices?
Government helped influence an entire medical industry JUST LIKE they did with the mortgage industry. I'm sure your culprits also include those greedy mortgage bankers, right? You know... those unscrupulous bankers who never could have sold those junk loans into the secondary market and removed themselves if the GOVERNMENT HADN'T "NATIONALIZED" 50% (can you say FANNIE and FREDDIE?) OF THE SECONDARY MARKET AND USED THEIR INFLUENCE TO RELAX LENDING STANDARDS? But then again, it would be very "cold and uncaring" for us to not allow poor [unqualified with insufficient income] people to purchase homes just like the "haves" do, right?
Don't you find it the least bit interesting that the "health plan" and "retirement" "safety nets" they created are 1.) Not good enough for them 2.) Always lean towards the government and not the people (try your - % of return on social security) and 3.) Create convenient funds they can steal from in the meantime.
Heaven forbid people took responsibility for themselves and did not think they were entitled to my tax money or a physician's services to get their free "health plan."
You can call it "cold and uncaring" if you want, but you are more than welcome to start a charity and work on the problem yourself if you feel that strongly about it. Health care is NOT a natural right... nothing that requires other people to give you free services or things is.
Several states seceded before the Civil war. It is a fact. The break up happened once. But war reversed it.
Historical Trend toward greater unity? You mean like the break up of the USSR, the breakup of India by the creation of Pakistan? Taiwan breaking off from China? Yugoslavia into serbia, bosnia, macedonia,croatia, slovenia and montenegro?
You're right, it never happens , especially not less than 20 years ago.
Yes, as I said there may be occasional set backs, but the historical trend has always been towards greater unity, people coming together with a common interest... such as the United States of America, the European Union, the United Nations, the North American Free Trade Agreement, the Commonwealth of Australia, in South America the Mercosur Trade Bloc and the Andean Community Trade Block, etc.
But what does this have to do with Wyoming?
Wyoming is not going to secede from the United States, the vast majority of Wyoming citizens are loyal Americans who like being part of the US. The business men who control Wyoming have too much to loose by leaving, they have it too good the way things are. Wyoming receives more federal dollars then it pays in income taxes, the US is Wyoming's best customer for almost everything it produces and sells from cattle to coal. Wyoming is exactly where the majority of its citizens want it to be, otherwise they would elect leaders to make changes. I don't see any ground swell of movement to make any big changes.
Last edited by ElkHunter; 11-16-2009 at 07:08 PM..
great post rmmoore! I'm with you. I think there are loads of people who think like you. We need to speak up. We've been told to be politically correct, to not offend, to withhold the truth because we might offend, etc...It's time to speak out intelligently in our workplace and community when the opportunity presents itself. I know I tend to bite my tongue oftentimes. I'm done doing that.
What I have found interesting over the last several years is the complaints of those who are "offended" by things such as the freedom of speech, and the fact that they are given an ear by our courts. In the times I've read the Constitution of the United States, I have yet to read where it says anyone has the right to "freedom from offense." Unfortunately, our courts seem to prize this "freedom" above those that are in the Constitution.
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Originally Posted by Son Of Liberty
Regarding succession and the previous observations and obstacles of Wyoming being in the middle of the U.S. could it not be contrived to round Montana into this sort of movement as well. What about N & S Dakota? I truly believe that it will take western states, states that are all about freedom(s) and freedom from government, to begin this sort of movement. I know Texas and Oklahoma would probably be on board. What about contacting some congressmen and/or senators? Is that silly?
Wyoming could be at the center of such a movement, but I know from my talks with others throughout the western states that the sentiment is shared by many, even many in California. Even though people have complained in these forums about those Californians that have moved to other states, many of them did so because they felt the same way the folks posting in this thread feel, and California was not the place they could exercise their freedom. Many of them may very well be allies when it comes to getting the fedgov under control.
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