Why do Afrocentists try to relate themselves to Egypt rather than claim their real history? (influence, speak)
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"Archaeology does not provide the only data supporting an African origin for the ancient Egyptians.
What has this to do with the fact that the Egyptians were never a different people and they West Africans don't come from there?
For the record, Egypt is known to have had its origins in all directions. Nubian cattle culture was part of it. West Asian agriculture and animal husbandry also contributed. Some Egytptologists think that ziggurat building inspired the pyramid, since the step pyramid was built with bricks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
" Studies of both ancient Egyptian and sub-Saharan African cultures have uncovered numerous similarities.
Yet the great things that happened in Egypt did not happen in most of the rest of Africa besides Nubia. If you feel some kind of joy at the fact that kings all over Africa carried flails and all of that nonsense, then fine. It has nothing to do with anything we are talking about in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
" This is not to say that African cultures are homogeneous or that Egyptian culture did not develop its own unique characteristics, but it does add more support to the argument that Egyptian civilization evolved from a common African cultural substratum."
See above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
" "This becomes especially apparent when one looks at Egypt's early history. As discussed previously, prehistoric Egyptians were semi-sedentary cattle-herders moving between the Nile Valley and the high savanna every year; this lifestyle is still practiced by some Sudanese groups today (Ryle 1982). In addition, archaeologist Timothy Kendall (2010) makes a congent case for the Egyptian spiritual concept of the "ka" having evolved from a Sudanese-style cattle culture. Early Egyptians also shared with their Sudanese counterparts the ritual sacrifice of royal servants to accompany departed kings into the afterlife (Ehret 1996)."
And? What has this to do with the fact that the Egyptians were never a different people and they West Africans don't come from there? that is what we are addressing in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
" "Many other Egyptian religious practices have close African parallels. Both ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharan Africans considered their king to have a godlike nature and the veneration of ancestral spirits was pivotal in both Egyptian and sub-Saharan religions (Bell 1996, Kusimba 1996). Kusimba and Yurco (1996) report that animals play a prominent role in both Egyptian and other African religions, with Egyptians and sub-Saharan peoples sharing a belief that divinity can be manifested in any form. The Egyptian conception of divinity is also similar to that of other Africans in another respect: Taiwo (2005) describes the Yoruba of Nigeria as believing in multiple divinities that are really manifestations of one Supreme Creator named Olodumare, whereas Allen (1997), citing an Egyptian papyrus, says that all of the characters in Egyptian mythology frequently called "gods" were really manifestations of one creator deity named Amun. This quasi-monotheistic belief system appears to have evolved from one similar to that still practiced by some southwest Ethiopian groups (Ehret 1996)."
But no pyramids in West Africa? No columned temples? No hieroglyphic writing? No extensive writings on the concept of Ma'at?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
" "Egyptians also resembled other Africans in the way they treated women; although both Egyptian and sub-Saharan African cultures tended to be male-dominated, both let women play a noteworthy role in economic, religious, and political arenas inaccessible to their Near Eastern and Mediterranean contemporaries (Lesko 1999). For example, one Egyptian mural in the New Kingdom tomb of Sennutem shows men and women working together in the fields, reflecting the widespread African custom of having women contribute significantly to agricultural work. In addition, both Egyptian pharaohs and sub-Saharan African rulers frequently gave their wives substantial influence at the political court."
But no pyramids in West Africa? No columned temples? No hieroglyphic writing? No extensive writings on the concept of Ma'at?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
" "Even such quintessentially Egyptian customs like mummification and the construction of large royal tombs are shared by other Africans. Budge (1973) observes that a number of sub-Saharan peoples would smoke-dry their deceased kings and wrap them in cloth to preserve them, and Seligman (1932) reports that some Sudanese tribes would bury important religious figures in large burial mounds that recall Egypt's pyramids."
But no actual pyramids in West Africa? No columned temples? No hieroglyphic writing? No extensive writings on the concept of Ma'at?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
" "The final cultural component that will be mentioned here is language. As Ehret (1996) shows, Afroasiatic, the linguistic phylum to which ancient Egyptian belongs, is ultimately of Northeast African origin, but much Egyptian vocabulary also appears to have been borrowed from another African language phylum called Nilo-Saharan (one example of a Nilo-Saharan language is the Maasai language of Kenya)."
But most of West Africa does not speak Afro-Asiatic, and none speak Egyptian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
"What has just been reproduced is far from a complete list of parallels between ancient Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, but it should suffice to show that much of the Egyptian culture emerged from a similar substratum to many other cultures distributed throughout the African continent."
But no pyramids in West Africa? No columned temples? No hieroglyphic writing? No extensive writings on the concept of Ma'at?
Egypt did not extensively export its culture, and the rest of Africa did not import it. Great. It is "African."
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
" Lesko, Barbara S. The Great Goddesses of Egypt. Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma Press, 1999.
Kusimba, Chapurukha M. "Ancestor Worship and Divine Kingship in Sub-Saharan Africa." In Egypt in Africa, compiled by Theodore Celenko, 59-61. Indianapolis: Indianapolis Museum of Art and Indiana University Press, 1996
"Where human traits have adaptive significance, their distributions are determined
by the distribution of the controlling selective forces and “there are no races,
there are only clines.” Where traits have no adaptive significance, neighbors will
share traits with neighbors and the analysis of adjacent samples will show that
they cluster together. Both situations occur in the Nile valley. The quantity of
melanin in the skin increases from the delta in the north up the Nile into the
tropics, reaching a maximum at the equator in the south. Neighboring populations
hare trivial traits with each other
to the extent that they form clusters based on
relationships and strictly in proportion
to breeding distance.
The old-fashioned chimerical concept of “race” is hopelessly inadequate
to deal
with the human biological reality of Egypt, ancient or modern. But neither the use
clines nor clusters alone can present a complete account. An assessment of
both is necessary before we can understand the biological nature of the people of the Nile valley."
Brace is definitely not the end all on authoritative sources on the origins of Egyptian culture.
I figured if I cited mainly African or African American scholars you may deem them as unauthoritative or too Afrocentric lol.
You quote him out of context. Brace demonstrated that the Ancient Egyptians clustered almost identically with moderns and that both are very close to West Asians and Europeans. good job in quoting him.
Had you read through the thread, you would know. I will re-post it eventually, but I am going to stretch things out a bit to demonstrate how...well...let be generous and say intellectually incurious... you actually are.
I posted something like two dozen studies from the best scientists from different fields who have studied it, and you posted one study that was admitted falsified AND ANTOHER THAT SUPPORTS ME.
Good show. Keep it up.
Post 529 does tell the entire story. The Egyptians are the same people that they always were. There is no debate what-so-ever on the subject amongst scientists. Showing that the Nubians might have contributed some things to pre-dynastic Egypt does not change who the Egyptians were, and it sure does not make them West Africans.
I can't anymore with you. It seems you lack any reading comprehension skills. As I pointed out and the poster seanturner showed that Brace's findings are INCONSISTANT lol.. If any thing it hurts your argument. Here's what seahunter posted to show you yet again Brace's inconsistent position.
“One approach, although limited, with which to explore the possibility of migration in earlier times, is through analysis of cranio-metric affinities. Previous studies have not specifically addressed the immigration of farmers from Europe into the Nile Valley. However, Brace et al. (1993) find that a series of upper Egyptian/Nubian epipalaeolithic crania affiliate by cluster analysis with groups they designate “sub-Saharan African” or just simply “African” (from which they incorrectly exclude the Maghreb, Sudan, and the Horn of Africa), whereas post-Badarian southern predynastic and a late dynastic northern series (called “E” or Gizeh) cluster together, and secondarily with Europeans. In the primary cluster with the Egyptian groups are also remains representing populations from the ancient Sudan and recent Somalia. Brace et al. (1993) seemingly interpret these results as indicating a population relationship from Scandinavia to the Horn of Africa, although the mechanism for this is not clearly stated; they also state that the Egyptians had no relationship with sub-Saharan Africans, a group that they nearly treat (incorrectly) as monolithic, although sometimes seemingly including Somalia, which directly undermines aspects of their claims. Sub-Saharan Africa does not define/delimit authentic Africanity
Like I said earlier, I only used Brace because quite frankly he's white. It seems from reading your previous posts that African and African American scholars are too Afrocentric for you lol.
You quote him out of context. Brace demonstrated that the Ancient Egyptians clustered almost identically with moderns and that both are very close to West Asians and Europeans. good job in quoting him.
Quoted him out of context? Goodness you're reaching for straws lol.
I can't anymore with you. It seems you lack any reading comprehension skills. As I pointed out and the poster seanturner showed that Brace's findings are INCONSISTANT lol.. If any thing it hurts your argument. Here's what seahunter posted to show you yet again Brace's inconsistent position.
“One approach, although limited, with which to explore the possibility of migration in earlier times, is through analysis of cranio-metric affinities. Previous studies have not specifically addressed the immigration of farmers from Europe into the Nile Valley. However, Brace et al. (1993) find that a series of upper Egyptian/Nubian epipalaeolithic crania affiliate by cluster analysis with groups they designate “sub-Saharan African” or just simply “African” (from which they incorrectly exclude the Maghreb, Sudan, and the Horn of Africa), whereas post-Badarian southern predynastic and a late dynastic northern series (called “E” or Gizeh) cluster together, and secondarily with Europeans. In the primary cluster with the Egyptian groups are also remains representing populations from the ancient Sudan and recent Somalia. Brace et al. (1993) seemingly interpret these results as indicating a population relationship from Scandinavia to the Horn of Africa, although the mechanism for this is not clearly stated; they also state that the Egyptians had no relationship with sub-Saharan Africans, a group that they nearly treat (incorrectly) as monolithic, although sometimes seemingly including Somalia, which directly undermines aspects of their claims. Sub-Saharan Africa does not define/delimit authentic Africanity
Like I said earlier, I only used Brace because quite frankly he's white. It seems from reading your previous posts that African and African American scholars are too Afrocentric for you lol.
Brace's arguments are consistent with what every other scientists has found on the matter. They are the same people that they have always been. If you don't like his 1993 study, then look at the later one when he adjusted his methodology...or look at Keita...or any of the geneticists who have said the same thing. They all say the same thing.
What you are attempting to do is the same thing that Keita sometimes does- re-defining what are clearly caucasoid features as "African." You can say it any way you want...they do not look like West Africans, but West Asians.
You know absolutely nothing. The origins of Egypt are known to come from all directions- but a great deal of what was once attributed to the Nubians is now known to have originated in Hierakonpolis.
It is all irrelevant anyway- Egypt has nothing to do with modern African American Afrocentrists.
Nor were the Egyptians ever a different people.
Other way around. All of these other people eventually took on Greek and Roman knowledge and contributed to the advancement of Western civilization. No such similar thing happened in Africa with Egyptian civilization, accept in Nubia.
By the way, I am a quarter Italian. The Romans are my ancestors. As Italy was heavily populated by Greek colonists, I almost certainly have Greek blood as well. And since the Romans colonized Spain, France and Britain..well, you get the point. Europe is more tightly related by blood and culture. It is just a fact.
Dude it's you who has it backwards. Northern Europe's tribes were assimilated to Roman customs. Northern European tribes had ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING to do with the foundations of Greco Roman culture. Just like the Meso Americans who were conquered by the Spanish absorbed Latin culture. Assimilation is not the same as conception. Good for you that "supposedly" you have Greek and Roman blood. I'm assuming you targeted this thread toward African Americans since quite frankly you have no clue as to what ethnic backgrounds anyone who's responded to you have.
Quoted him out of context? Goodness you're reaching for straws lol.
He clearly says that the Egyptians cluster with Europeans, and we have addressed your non-sensical objections above.
Most importantly, the ancient and modern Egyptians cluster with each other. They were never a different people.
I have played this game before. The chest thumping does not impress me.
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