I wonder how long some of us will be able to survive if... (Fairbanks: earthquake, live in)

[Rance]

The dollar will always have some value. You can always use it to start a fire or as toilet paper! So hang onto those dollars!

[tickyul]

Don't feel alone in Alaska, the decline of this country will continue to march on for all of us.

The Mad Max movie series comes to mind, this will no longer be fiction, much of this once fine country will resemble that movie.

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Ray, your posts are giving me a headache.

Hmmm...take a break, Met. You'r working too hard. There will be more salmon to catch next year

[tigre79]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

We also have to face the fact that most of Alaska is owned by the Federal Government, and as such will be out of limits and protected by the military.

They might try to protect some areas, but I'm not sure all federal lands are necessarily worth defending from their perspective, if manpower becomes an issue. They're probably not going to be interested in the same things we are, like good moose habitat or salmon streams. They might well come around here for their precious oil terminal, if that's still worth something at whatever point in time we're talking about, but otherwise we've got a pretty good setup out here. Small population with little else nearby, in a highly defensible location. I'm sure there are ne're-do-wells who would have to be dealt with, but we could at least keep the hordes out until it turned into Lord of the Flies.

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by tigre79

They might try to protect some areas, but I'm not sure all federal lands are necessarily worth defending from their perspective, if manpower becomes an issue. They're probably not going to be interested in the same things we are, like good moose habitat or salmon streams. They might well come around here for their precious oil terminal, if that's still worth something at whatever point in time we're talking about, but otherwise we've got a pretty good setup out here. Small population with little else nearby, in a highly defensible location. I'm sure there are ne're-do-wells who would have to be dealt with, but we could at least keep the hordes out until it turned into Lord of the Flies.

Perhaps. But you have to consider that the military will protect its resources, which include Federal oil reserves, any gold mining operations taking place throughout Alaska, several air bases and its aircraft and equipment, several Army posts and aircraft plus armaments, Missile Defense area by Delta Junction, and numerous other areas. The military in Alaska has always been very strong, and the number of military installations is quite large compared to other States.

[RedJacket]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Perhaps. But you have to consider that the military will protect its resources, which include Federal oil reserves, any gold mining operations taking place throughout Alaska, several air bases and its aircraft and equipment, several Army posts and aircraft plus armaments, Missile Defense area by Delta Junction, and numerous other areas. The military in Alaska has always been very strong, and the number of military installations is quite large compared to other States.

I don't believe the military is going to have to worry too much about its own citizens. The real problems will come from outside U.S. borders if and when the sh*it hits the fan.

[tigre79]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Perhaps. But you have to consider that the military will protect its resources, which include Federal oil reserves, any gold mining operations taking place throughout Alaska, several air bases and its aircraft and equipment, several Army posts and aircraft plus armaments, Missile Defense area by Delta Junction, and numerous other areas. The military in Alaska has always been very strong, and the number of military installations is quite large compared to other States.

Sure, but in a SHTF scenario I'm mostly concerned with my own backyard, and we've got one oil terminal and one refinery that they could be concerned with. If we can: A) keep them out entirely (which isn't probably likely) or B) keep them occupied with protecting their essential assets and not the rest of the National Forest land around here, we'd probably be okay from a land-availability standpoint. Each area has specific characteristics that will aid or hinder their success, but I think we're in a decent position. Certainly better than people in more populated or easier-access areas.

[Gungnir]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

What do you think Federal lands contain; bags full of paper dollars? The answer is: it contains oil reserves, gold, silver, copper and a lot of other minerals, coal, diamonds, plus a whole bunch of wild game and fish (food). The dollar is not longer backed by gold and silver; therefore its only value is a promise by the US. But the natural resources I have mentioned have their own values, ones that are tangible (not a credit promise). Governments will also control large farms, and all industries in general.

No they contain the potential for resources, without a means to get to it then they're worthless. If they were so important, then surely someone would already be taking advantage of them... No? Or at least built a road to them don't you think? Certainly the worst possible time for taking advantage of them would be where the dollar was worth what a Rentenmark was in about 1924.

By what promise does the government give to whoever wants to exploit that resource that it's exploitable? Or does it just give it away on condition of getting a license fee for any extraction? How would it guarantee that the fee would be paid, or even that the resource would be developed, given that it's totally illiquid? In individual cases of illiquidity, people normally take what they can get, so a $5k car goes for $1k. Would you be happy about that? After all they're your assets too...?

Are you really proposing that the government suspends the 4th Amendment? So they take other peoples businesses and pay them what? Can't be dollars they're worthless...? (See below for more discussion on this).

If the promise of the US is worthless then the dollar is worthless, indeed every currency on the market is purely a government promise from the issuing government that it holds value. It's quite the house of cards.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Explained above

Using some logic that is not of this world agreed.

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Military members and their dependents fall under military medical care and support. Also, like it has always been, military members follow military law, and when one breaks such, one is prosecuted under the UCMJ. Why should military members move away from the only source of food, shelter, and medical care easily available to them? This food was called C-rations when I enlisted in the military back in the early ‘70s (I served for over 20 years, and retired in the ‘90s).

Ray, if the dollar is worthless, then what will the government use to supply said dependents with medical care and support. Forget about UCMJ for a moment, and put yourself in the position that you are not being paid, your family is in an unsecure location, the police/fire/EMS are not being paid. Now tell me you'd give a hoot about the possibility of being caught and tried for desertion. There's an implicit expectation about Military service, that being that while you defend your country, your country is defending your family. No dollar means there's little chance your country can defend your family.

Its only families on base who could rely on any Mil support, and then there would be a significant amount of manpower needed to be spent to ensure security of both sensitive areas of a base stuffed with refugee families, and the base itself from others who know there is gas/food/medical in there. It also only applies to immediate family (spouses/children) and ignores parents, siblings and their siblings kids. Who would all be outside that fence fending for themselves.

Then there's also holding allegiance to a government that has failed in one of it's prime constitutional responsibilities (minting coin), at the end of the day the Military swears allegiance to the Constitution (enlisted also swear allegiance to their superiors and the Presidency), and not the federal government/ In this instance I think that there would be a good argument that the Federal Government is a domestic enemy, through their own actions or inactions. This would be especially true if they issued any subsequent order suspending the constitution (to get around that pesky 4th Amendment), or issuing any standing order to fire on civilians acting lawfully (which may also contravene command responsibility, which may be of more concern with a shaky government).

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Perhaps the State F&G will dissolve, but not central governments.

Sure central governments would, they're not getting paid, or more realistically they might be getting paid but with monopoly money. Even if Congress, the Presidency, and the Supreme Court did not dissolve, then how will they operate? You think that the FBI are going to go and fight the good fight, when they're getting paid a gallon of gas a month? How about the EPA, BLM, DOE, DEA, TLA ()? Or is there going to be some "special" payment scheme for them too? So that's 2M Federal and 1.5M military, with for the sake of argument an average of 3 dependents (spouse and two kids), or 12M people who need to be fed, clothed, medicated, and fueled by a bankrupt government. Even assuming there's a way to overcome the huge logistics problems of doing that, how long could all of them live on any stockpiles? A month? Two Months? Not forever that's for sure, maybe not even long enough to provide time for an interim currency to be established and international trade resumed.

It's not rational to believe that the federal government could continue operate in this situation, it has no currency, an economy that's generating nothing (well possibly local currency that's worthless more likely a hedge currency that's offshore), millions of people who have no means to access food, water, clothing, medical treatment, fuel, power, and it might have suspended constitutional protections. It's several orders of magnitude worse than FEMA's worst nightmare, not to mention the external effects of other economies tied into the Dollar, i.e. Sterling, Euro, Yuan, Yen, etc who might be better off than the US, but it's not going to be plain sailing for them either.

[Metlakatla]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

Hmmm...take a break, Met. You'r working too hard. There will be more salmon to catch next year

I can't take a break; I already have more fish than I can handle and tomorrow my seiners are coming in again. Never seen so much fing fish in my life; I'll be here until damned January if this **** keeps up.

[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

I can't take a break; I already have more fish than I can handle and tomorrow my seiners are coming in again. Never seen so much fing fish in my life; I'll be here until damned January if this **** keeps up.

Well, that's good news (good business, really) Probably not eating salmon lately. Right?