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What is nasty bad stuff to make solar panels? I have not done any research on how they are made but have done micro chip processing. It seems to me there are ways around using HF. I have googled places that are using more plasma etching and straight up micro milling circuits without the need for nasty chemicals. If a design requries the use of HF or some other nasty chemical maybe go back to the drawing board?
Quote:
Originally Posted by riceme
Dak, part of their problem with solar is that some of the materials used to manufacture them are seriously nasty, bad stuff. The other issues are that... well, have you ever seen a solar plant? They're huge. I mean HUGE. They take up a tremendous footprint for relatively small power production. Of course, in enviro's eyes that is destroying the land and wildlife habitat (same offenses as wind turbines). Three strikes, you're out.
If you want to take a gander at a solar plant, Google "Kramer Junction solar plant" or "Mojave Desert solar plant" and check out images.
I am not a big fan of solar because of the low output for the footprint and the high cost per kW. I would rather see solar used in private applications as opposed to utility scale power plants, but you won't see me taking up arms to fight against it because I think it's more important that we have a balanced energy plan.
Problem is solar and wind dont generate jobs unless your are manufacturing the components. Your utility bill might go down a little but my utility bill is the least of my concerns.
Renewable energy is not going to revitalize an area or get them out of the hole, its a nice to have for a community that has their stuff togehter already.
Pot might be but the problem is you cant really export it anywhere and depending on how the licencing is done either the market will be saturated and you wont make money or you wont win the drawing for a permit and wont make money (if you do win then good for you but I have never won when I played lotterys lol). Growing pot is not rocket science and once its fully legal everyone and their mom will be growing large amounts of it and peddling it on craigslist, alaska list etc etc. Sure the state can tax it but the unit cost will go through the floor so the taxes will be bupkis.
Maybe we could refine rare earth metals here but could you imagine the enviornmental red tape, I wont see it and even if it did happen it would be the same old battle between state, feds and some corrupt company who will sell out their own kids to pad their profits.
Tell all the guys families who are working in erection, commissioning and operations & maintenance that there are no jobs in wind and solar outside of Mfg. They will want to know where their husbands and fathers have been for 40+ weeks out of every 52. Wind O&M is the backbone of the economy in many rural communities in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Minnesota... They are high paying jobs where there are otherwise no others. It is true that small wind farms and solar plants don't end up contributing to the economy in a big way, but most of the projects in the states mentioned above are >200MW and get expanded every few years. Those sites require large O&M teams.
Oh yeah, and tell Humboldt County they're not making any money exporting weed. They will laugh their asses off. Enviros shut down timber & fishing 20+ years ago, and growing pot is the only thing they have left. It's their #1 industry for the past 10 years. ...and it's not even legal there.
What is nasty bad stuff to make solar panels? I have not done any research on how they are made but have done micro chip processing. It seems to me there are ways around using HF. I have googled places that are using more plasma etching and straight up micro milling circuits without the need for nasty chemicals. If a design requries the use of HF or some other nasty chemical maybe go back to the drawing board?
I knew someone was going to ask me that! I can't remember the name of it right now and I've gotta jet right now... I'll see if I have it in some of my old files tonight or I'll try to look it up.
I knew someone was going to ask me that! I can't remember the name of it right now and I've gotta jet right now... I'll see if I have it in some of my old files tonight or I'll try to look it up.
LOL, yes there are some good jobs in the short term and a very small group of people at high wages in operations. But its not like the volume of 6 figure jobs provided is going to save the local economy.
Do you think the operations to serve the anchorage area would be great enough to create a meaningful number of high paid jobs? I highly doubt it. Maybe I am wrong and I would love it if I were, I just don't see a wind farm producing the same number of long term 6 figure jobs as oil and gas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by riceme
Tell all the guys families who are working in erection, commissioning and operations & maintenance that there are no jobs in wind and solar outside of Mfg. They will want to know where their husbands and fathers have been for 40+ weeks out of every 52. Wind O&M is the backbone of the economy in many rural communities in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Minnesota... They are high paying jobs where there are otherwise no others. It is true that small wind farms and solar plants don't end up contributing to the economy in a big way, but most of the projects in the states mentioned above are >200MW and get expanded every few years. Those sites require large O&M teams.
Oh yeah, and tell Humboldt County they're not making any money exporting weed. They will laugh their asses off. Enviros shut down timber & fishing 20+ years ago, and growing pot is the only thing they have left. It's their #1 industry for the past 10 years. ...and it's not even legal there.
There's a little more to the timber situation in the Pacific Northwest than a bunch of crazed "enviros" bringing things to a standstill. A little thing like there being no market for the timber that was being produced had a lot more to do with it. Kind of what's happening in Alaska now with no real market for the oil. At the time, the enviros were just in the news a lot, but I think it would have played out the same regardless.
I'm not sure about Humboldt County, but here in Oregon, the big weed export operations are run by Mexican cartels. Even though it's legal here, exporting it isn't -- it's not legal in any of the states that have legalized it. In that sense Pitts is right. Besides, these areas have something called I-5 that makes it easy to traffic drugs ... I wouldn't try exporting it from Alaska.
Well that's interesting... I am surely not the only one who thought Red Dog was local. And regarding Greens Creek, sounds like sort of a similar deal with Pogo (disregarding that they're owned by Sumitomo). I know one (singular... one! And I used to work for her) person who works in an office in Fairbanks (meaning not on the mine site) with three other people and aside from that I have never heard of, met or seen anyone who works out there. I have heard that the guys fly in and out from -48 which is disheartening if it's true since it's right outside of Fairbanks.
I am a little sensitive about importing labor, doesn't matter where it's from... it just doesn't sit right with me.
^Doesn't mean Pogo doesn't employ locals... I've just never met them and it strikes me as odd. I know guys who work at Fort Knox, Kensington, Red Dog, Usibelli, a handful of mines in -48... No one from Pogo except my old manager who works in town.
I know a bunch of Pogo employees down Delta's way, both clerical and miners.
I think solar should be used in areas that are dead space and no huge solar farms taking up land. The tops of houses and buildings and even the one company that was testing solar roadways (and driveways) The roadways kept themselves clean and in the winter heated the roadway with the power they generated to keep the ice and snow off... Not sure how the testing in Northern Europe is going, but that was the goal. (And it could be vaporware now)
Even without roadways, think of all the rooftops...
Pitts - More people work in Solar than oil and gas now... And there are a lot of high paid Solar jobs. Electricians don't come cheap. Are there 6 figure roughnecks in solar, probably not. I do know that if you get a solar quote, the cost to put the stuff in is more than double the cost of the supplies. (sometimes triple). Seems to me there is a lot of labor and places for people to make money involved.
Good news with Solar is that engineers are constantly making better strides in efficiency. Again -- I do agree Riceme -- huge solar farms are probably not the way I would want to go either. I do like the fresnel lens idea on the smaller arrays that can triple the output of the panel. Not really a fan of using mirrors to super heat water for a steam engine (which is also "solar" power).
I don't see legal marijuana in AK doing much for the state's bottom line either. Although since the drug cartels manage to get their garbage up here, I don't see how it would be a deterrent for it to go the other way. Only that it is cheaper to move it to the customer base in the L48 from the L48... All I see happening is that "designer" drugs will increase up in AK as the marijuana that gets sold up there is now going to be legally grown in AK... Since you can have a 6 plants with 3 flowering at a time, I would suspect most users will just grow it themselves.
The argument that a lot of people work in an industry so we need to keep an old outdated industry going doesn't make sense. They said that about the railroad and even recently about smart electric meters that don't require meter readers to go to each house every month. Computers and automation took away jobs too. Some people will surely get a raw deal, but most are able to move into other industries and new people coming into the workplace choose something different. The world will always need some amount of oil... Until the last drop is pumped out of the ground. As low as oil is right now and it will probably go lower -- it won't stay that way forever.
It won't come back in time to same AK (and those of us that live and work there) the pain of low oil prices.
I don't see legal marijuana in AK doing much for the state's bottom line either. Although since the drug cartels manage to get their garbage up here, I don't see how it would be a deterrent for it to go the other way. Only that it is cheaper to move it to the customer base in the L48 from the L48... All I see happening is that "designer" drugs will increase up in AK as the marijuana that gets sold up there is now going to be legally grown in AK... Since you can have a 6 plants with 3 flowering at a time, I would suspect most users will just grow it themselves.
My commentary on this was specific to legal growers and anyone who might think that exporting would be a good way to cash in on Alaska's new weed laws.
So yeah, it's a deterrent to those who want to operate a legit business. It might not be a deterrent for those who operate in the shade, but there's a reason it's not already being done to any significant extent (before someone jumps in and twists what I'm saying, I'm typing about exporting).
I don't think all that much will actually change in Alaska. People who have grown their own forever will simply continue to do so, and anyone with any sense will simply mind their own business and not indulge in wailing and gnashing of teeth because of the personal decisions made by others. A lot more damage is caused to people and property in Alaska and elsewhere as a result of overindulgence in a legal drug that anyone can get, but that's probably another conversation.
ETA that it's my understanding that the drug cartels really don't bring much weed to Alaska and that they concentrate the majority of their efforts on bringing in meth and Oxycontin and whatever else is easier to slip through.
Last edited by Metlakatla; 01-25-2016 at 02:31 PM..
I think you are confusing manufacture of solar equipment with just having a solar farm and a small crew to run it. Yes if we made solar panels in Alaska it would be huge money jobs for a lot of people.
However installing a solar farm and simply operating it would generate some good jobs for the initial construction but after that not a lot of people are needed to maintain that system. Every so often you might need to do some upgrades and call in an out of state crew for a few months but not year after year 6 figure jobs..
I am not really worried about the state making money, it all boils down to how many full time long term 6 figure jobs does a given industry bring. That's what is going to make a difference in the local economy. Why would your or I care about how much money the state brings in? In theory they could automate the oil and gas process have a little meter and the state gets cut a check, how does that help you? You get a dividend, ok so what you cant live on that.
All I am saying is that slapping up a wind farm is not going to bring back the gravy train, the changes are going to have to be much more substantial otherwise Alaska is eventually going to go back to the early 1960's ... with a few wind mills to show for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakster
I think solar should be used in areas that are dead space and no huge solar farms taking up land. The tops of houses and buildings and even the one company that was testing solar roadways (and driveways) The roadways kept themselves clean and in the winter heated the roadway with the power they generated to keep the ice and snow off... Not sure how the testing in Northern Europe is going, but that was the goal. (And it could be vaporware now)
Even without roadways, think of all the rooftops...
Pitts - More people work in Solar than oil and gas now... And there are a lot of high paid Solar jobs. Electricians don't come cheap. Are there 6 figure roughnecks in solar, probably not. I do know that if you get a solar quote, the cost to put the stuff in is more than double the cost of the supplies. (sometimes triple). Seems to me there is a lot of labor and places for people to make money involved.
Good news with Solar is that engineers are constantly making better strides in efficiency. Again -- I do agree Riceme -- huge solar farms are probably not the way I would want to go either. I do like the fresnel lens idea on the smaller arrays that can triple the output of the panel. Not really a fan of using mirrors to super heat water for a steam engine (which is also "solar" power).
I don't see legal marijuana in AK doing much for the state's bottom line either. Although since the drug cartels manage to get their garbage up here, I don't see how it would be a deterrent for it to go the other way. Only that it is cheaper to move it to the customer base in the L48 from the L48... All I see happening is that "designer" drugs will increase up in AK as the marijuana that gets sold up there is now going to be legally grown in AK... Since you can have a 6 plants with 3 flowering at a time, I would suspect most users will just grow it themselves.
The argument that a lot of people work in an industry so we need to keep an old outdated industry going doesn't make sense. They said that about the railroad and even recently about smart electric meters that don't require meter readers to go to each house every month. Computers and automation took away jobs too. Some people will surely get a raw deal, but most are able to move into other industries and new people coming into the workplace choose something different. The world will always need some amount of oil... Until the last drop is pumped out of the ground. As low as oil is right now and it will probably go lower -- it won't stay that way forever.
It won't come back in time to same AK (and those of us that live and work there) the pain of low oil prices.
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