No Pebble Mine (Fairbanks: house, rent, lease)

[User 2]

Originally Posted by RayinAK

...an emotional outcry of what life has been to you through the years. It has been hard, eh?

You can go to whatever extreme lengths of incredulous rationalizations as you feel you need to justify your apathy, ray... ....it doesn't alter the fact that you suggest apathy as a desirable trait.

Talking about emotionally wrought, take a look at your own body of work trying to make pleas for some kind of fawning adulation and concurrent sympathy for your oft offered 'success' and your insistance that you have no time left to attend to any civic responsibility beyond occasionally voting....

...talk about ringing one's own bell, ...tell us again how hard you work and how successful you are, ...so successful that you feel you've taken care of your own needs so there's no reason to be concerned beyond that...

No matter how you wish to frame things in your mind, ray, you know nothing about my life, and especially anything about whether it may have been, or is 'hard', (as you try to infer).

As it is, I'm wildly successful, more than comfortably wealthy, and not at all unsatisfied with my life.... My life is one of a source for constant joy and great pleasure, and I'm deeply appreciative of it all.

But my personal life is not a measure of what the reality of unconnected issues consist of, ....for that reason, I have no need to feel reality need be embellished or altered.

I, ..or my life, is not the issue....

My personal life is not a part of the debate of the merits of an issue, nor is it a modifier of the reality of that issue at the crux of any debate.

Seems to me, the people who wish to interject the personal into what is not personal have some kind of conflict, or affliction which doesn't allow them to view the issue at hand,

...they have to cloak it in some phantasm of their own devising by trying to make suppositions unconnected seem somehow to be connected, attack the messenger instead of addressing the issue.

Seems to me, the people who wish to alter reality, or deflect attention from the issue, are the people who aren't happy, ray......

...why, if you're so successful and well off, are you so insecure that you have to think you need to create fantasies about others you can know nothing about?

Why, when an issue is being discussed, do you attempt to debase, or demean the unconnected personal lives of those you may disagree with? Have you been unable to grow beyond that childish behavior?

Missing something in that glowing report of your success, ray?

Most satisfied people don't spend time trying to tell other people things they can know nothing about, ....

Good luck with that, ray, ....you might find the answer to your insecurity some day and you'll find you don't have to create fantasies anymore...
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[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

$250.00 per year is for each victim is...less than accountability, I'm afraid.

Would something comparable to that be good enough for you if it were yourself or a family member/friend/whatever?

The Union Carbide settlement was, actually, an out of court settlement and as such, a matter of financial expediency for the exporting company. It had nothing to do with them being held "accountable" through the court system. It was merely cheaper for them to pay off India to the tune of $250.00 per victim than continue to pay their attorneys.

I don't know about the Union Carbide issue, but there are other cases, right here in the US where the opposite takes place. For example, the lady who bought a cup of coffee at McDonalds, placed the hot cup between her legs, and then drove away. This lady made millions from the lawsuit. Quite a lot of smokers have died, supposedly from smoking cigarettes, and the tobacco industry has paid billions to the survivors. There are all sorts of frivolous lawsuits people have made money from, too.

I understand that the companies of yesterday could easily get away with abuses, but it's much difficult for an US company of today (on US soil) to survive unless all measures to protect the workers and the public, from the dangers involved, are implemented. Take for example an office where there are a lot of laser copiers and printers: it has already been made public that the toner and inks dissipate through the air, and the workers are exposed to these substances. The companies that are ahead in safety measures are already creating specific places with exhaust/filters to prevent the substances from reaching the workers.

[User 2]

Originally Posted by stiffnecked

Foreign owned companies can very well be held accountable for their wrongful actions. To say otherwise just shows a complete lack of understanding of the legal system in our country and many others.

So I'm sure you can explain why, in their very prospectus, Northern Dynasty states clearly for any investor who cares to look at that prospectus, that they themselves claim Northern Dynasty cannot be held liable for environmental damages to the Pebble area, because it is not a U.S. company.

This information is offered to prospective investors who may balk at the chance that profits may be affected by some future claims against the corporation.

Northern Dynasty affirms that will not be the case.

...and if you care to state the law as it is, they are correct, they cannot be pursued, there is no avenue to do so.

To state otherwise, is to state a falsehood.

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[Metlakatla]

I don't know about the Union Carbide issue, but there are other cases, right here in the US where the opposite takes place. For example, the lady who bought a cup of coffee at McDonalds, placed the hot cup between her legs, and then drove away. This lady made millions from the lawsuit. Quite a lot of smokers have died, supposedly from smoking cigarettes, and the tobacco industry has paid billions to the survivors. There are all sorts of frivolous lawsuits people have made money from, too.

Yeah, but that doesn't apply to the issue at hand. By the way, did you read about the guy who filed a civil suit against his "psychic" because the psychic told him he was going to win the lottery and he didn't?

While it's true that in the U.S., anyone can file a civil suit against anyone else provided they can find and obtain legal representation, that doesn't have much bearing on the legal accountability issues involved with foreign corporations.

I certainly wouldn't be one of the first people to chirp like Chicken Little that the sky is going to fall on us all if the Pebble mine plans were to continue as they are, but a project of that magnitude warrants as much public dialog as possible, particularly when it has the potential to adversely effect another industry (commercial fishing in this case).

And I am not at all convinced that the Pebble mine project will result in any great increase in employment opportunities for the residents of this state. I've seen Fort Knox and Pogo being held up as examples of how this would no doubt be the case, but there are different dynamics involved at a site that's in a more remote location.

[User 2]

Presently, foreign owned companies can escape liability...

The quote is Time Magazine....

"Today, gold and other precious-metal mining companies are extracting bounties of ore, leaving behind scarred mountainsides, toxic acid-rock runoffs and waste-rock dumps -- and although much of the damage is on public land, the mining operations, most of which are multinationals, are not required to pay royalties on precious-metals production, and many escape liability for environmental restoration.

Thankfully, there are still people working to correct this lack of protection in our laws..

...legislation has been introduced to correct this, but until this is created by new legislation, foreign owned corporations can, and do escape liabilities they leave behind.


All they have to do, is what many have done before, claim bankruptcy in their US division and walk back across the border....

....scott free.

Making Gold Miners Pay - TIME
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Of course, this information has already been offered in this thread, (with the source links to confirm it)

...that doesn't stop the people who would continue to offer false information.

For some reason, their interests impel them to continue to offer false versions of reality.

....a distinctly nefarious behavior.
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[RayinAK]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Yeah, but that doesn't apply to the issue at hand. By the way, did you read about the guy who filed a civil suit against his "psychic" because the psychic told him he was going to win the lottery and he didn't?

While it's true that in the U.S., anyone can file a civil suit against anyone else provided they can find and obtain legal representation, that doesn't have much bearing on the legal accountability issues involved with foreign corporations.

I certainly wouldn't be one of the first people to chirp like Chicken Little that the sky is going to fall on us all if the Pebble mine plans were to continue as they are, but a project of that magnitude warrants as much public dialog as possible, particularly when it has the potential to adversely effect another industry (commercial fishing in this case).

And I am not at all convinced that the Pebble mine project will result in any great increase in employment opportunities for the residents of this state. I've seen Fort Knox and Pogo being held up as examples of how this would no doubt be the case, but there are different dynamics involved at a site that's in a more remote location.

But again, what are foreign corporations? The American companies in other countries, or foreign companies on US soil? Lawsuits can be filed against foreign corporation on US soil, and the other way around. Like it or not, this is one of those things of a global economy. American companies operate all over the world these days, and so companies from foreign lands. A coworker of mine just purchased a slightly used GM truck. The engine is built in China, and the rest of the truck is assembled in Mexico. Toyota builds several of its automobiles in the US, while some other Japanese companies assemble some of their cars in the US. The same US automobile companies operate in Canada. I don't like any of these things, but that's the way things are nowadays.

Of course, discussing the Pebble Mine Project is a great idea. I have nothing against that. It's nice to be able to maintain a sane dialog in this forum, but as you can see above, it's not possible because of all the accusations, assumptions, and other emotional stuff. All I have said is that the State and federal government are the ones who authorize mining operations in Alaska, and even posted one of the agencies involved. I would think that all the agencies involved, from the EPA to the State of Alaska (including the legislature), take the steps necessary for the benefit of Alaska, not only relating to mining, but all other industries. I would be happy for those who can get job that's good enough to support their families, with a good health insurance to boot. That's what I meant to imply in previous posts.

In my view, the best idea can be found in some point between those opposed to the project, and those that do not. A dialog about this and other issues is healthy, but arguments only show one's state of mind, or at least gives a hint of how one has been treated by life in general.

[BudinAk]

Originally Posted by User 2

Nobody knows?

Show me a similar open pit, water mixing zone tailing pond gold mining operation that did not result in acid leaching, and other toxics eventually making their way into the nearby water systems.
You can't, because that process produces known results. That's why remediation and reclamation is an expected component of mine licensing.
Remediation means remedying the damage, reclamation means reclaiming what's been disrupted, by the very terminology we know what to expect.
I have no idea why, when we have a historical record to look at, and we know that reclamation and remediation are realities, why anyone wants to pretend we can't know what the results will be.
That's just not a credible claim, we have a record to base our knowledge on. We already know what similar operations produce in the way of their toxic legacy.
And citing an average wage in an industry won't tell you much of anything about what average wage earners make. ..

That's right: NOBODY knows! You can't take "statistics" and data from old mines, done under older, outdated, lax rules and regs, and under different environmental considerations, and say that's exactly what would happen at Pebble, under the newer more stringent rules and regulations. Nobody knows what will happen.

And...you didn't like my quoting the average wage for miners in Alaska. I thought: "hmm...gee...well maybe I was wrong...". So, I researched it on the web, to see. Well...I am now forced to admit I was wrong! The average wage for Alaskan miners ISN'T $68k/yr, as I said earlier. It's $82k/yr! It has gone up in the last 6 or 7 years. If unskilled laborers only make half that average wage, then they are somewhere up around $40k/yr...not bad for an unskilled worker. Are you saying it would be better if someone worked a laborer's job in Fairbanks or Anchorage, for say...$12/hr (seems to be the current going rate for laborer's) (and all-too-often seasonal work at that), rather than go out there in the sticks and make $20/hr, with room, board, and benefits tossed in? How will they support a family? And, how will they EVER be able to afford a house, if they stay in town? If I were in that situation, I'd grit my teeth, pack my stuff, and get on that plane out to the mine. And while I was out there, I'd be picking some brains to see what I had to do, to get one of those higher paying jobs. No, it probably wouldn't be fun, but I'd do it.
By the way, the sites I researched said employment of Alaskans in the mining industry runs around 78% to 82%, on average, for the whole state.

With all that said, I'm still not impressed with foreigners coming here to mine our valuable minerals...whatever happened to American owned outfits? Why can't we seem to keep the money in our own country? Why do we have to rely on foreign companies, to provide us with the good jobs? I'd just as soon Pebble sits on "the back burner" for a few more years, until we get some solid answers...

Bye

Bud

[RayinAK]

Bud,
There is something else I can add, although I have to do some research, or at least an Internet search to attain a monetary figure of how much one gold mine alone brings to the Fairbanks North Star Borough in taxes. It goes into millions per year, but I don't have the figures at the moment. The last figure I heard of for 2005 (when gold was cheaper), was $3.5-million on property tax. And it does not end there, since any mining operation requires the local purchase of fuels, electricity (sometimes), equipment, food, etc. Not all of these things are purchased locally, but quite a lot are.

[The average citizen]

North to Alaska north to Russia's own big Sam left Seattle in the year of '92 etc.
The crustal plate is just of the coast and I gather there was a bad earthquake there in1964 which had some effect on Anchorage .
Also in the late 19th century the US purchased it from Russia(real eatate deal of the century)
The bottom line is that enviromental factors tend to cut into company profits and that we all need some form employment to support our families and shareholders do like returns on investments.
Seismic activity I gather has some effect on the planning of mining operations.
There are experts available to work this out.

[Metlakatla]

I work for a gold mining company, and a Canadian one at that. My paychecks aren't in United States currency, so I do know something about globalization...

Our little mine is what mining optimally should be in Alaska. Fairly good rate of local hire for "lesser" positions and we buy all our groceries locally. One subcontactor is exclusive to the Ketchikan area. I don't think there has been a single violation there. The money is also a bit above average.

Not many of the geologists there are in favor of the Pebble project going ahead as proposed, which is a red flag in my opinion. I've heard more than a few people say that they would not be interested in employment there, and these are people who are pro mining by virtue of being employed in that field.

My major concern about Pebble is that it's at the mouth of the largest red salmon fishery on the planet.

(Most of the groceries for Pebble would be barged up from the lower 48, by the way. Same with equipment. Some of the subcontractors might come out of Anchorage. The electricity would be produced with on site generators. Rumor has it that the "lesser" jobs would not be lucrative enough to be much of an incentive. The miners themselves would be hired through a sub contractor).