News, Native dancing ban lifted in Alaska village. (Nome: rumors, people)

[warptman]

Thanks. There is a Yup'ik Immersion School here where they only speak that and no English.

[freezengirl]

That is good. In my part of the country the native languages have almost died out. They are starting to really push back now and encouraging the younger children to learn it. I went to the public library today and noticed they are putting signs up in Ogibway and English.

[teamcoltra]

Originally Posted by gobrien

I am just amazed at the gall of roving missionaries to have cursed so much of the world with their ridiculous beliefs.

And dancing around in circles whooping and hollering thinking that something will happen is a completely sane belief?

I am not meaning to put down the eskimo dancing, OR the quakers, just saying people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by teamcoltra

And dancing around in circles whooping and hollering thinking that something will happen is a completely sane belief?

If you don't have a clue what it is, describing something in the most derogatory terms you can think of says more about you than about the something.

In fact if you can find someone who understands both the Eskimo dancing traditions and human psychology, they'd be able to explain to you in some very technical terms that yes it is a "completely sane belief" that has remarkable social benefits.

I am not meaning to put down the eskimo dancing, OR the quakers, just saying people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Ahem, since when did any group of Eskimos ever insist that the Quakers take up even a small part of Eskimo culture?

[teamcoltra]

FD
I respect the right of the Eskimo culture to do whatever they feel they need to, I would rather them embrace dancing and singing over meth and drug abuse like the kids seem to be doing now.

However, its not your place to put down the quakers for doing what they believed in, just because it doesn't jive well now. Lets look at it from the OTHER perspective: These quakers saw the natives doing something that they felt would damn them to an eternity in hell, so them in their godlyness took on these "savages" (I don't know if they thought of them that way at the time or not but they did down in the lower48) and even though they were afraid of them, worked to save them from an eternity in hell.

Sounds pretty nice to me.

btw, I tend to despise organized religion so I am surely not defending the quakers... but this is more like the kettle calling the pot black.

[Floyd_Davidson]

Originally Posted by teamcoltra

FD
I respect the right of the Eskimo culture to do whatever they feel they need to, I would rather them embrace dancing and singing over meth and drug abuse like the kids seem to be doing now.

Just as long as they do it the White way, huh?

However, its not your place to put down the quakers for doing what they believed in, just because it doesn't jive well now. Lets look at it from the OTHER perspective: These quakers saw the natives doing something that they felt would damn them to an eternity in hell, so them in their godlyness took on these "savages" (I don't know if they thought of them that way at the time or not but they did down in the lower48) and even though they were afraid of them, worked to save them from an eternity in hell.

Sounds pretty nice to me.

Nice eh? You call Eskimos savages, and say it's ok for those nice old White folks, because they just didn't know any better and neither should we.

I've got news for you, they knew better then. They knew better in 1621 when the Puritans got off the Mayflower and signed their little pact. They weren't looking for freedom of religion, as is commonly thought in the US today... they wanted the freedom to persecute anyone they felt like. No civilized country in Europe would tolerate it, so they came to the New World. And damned if the Quakers didn't immediately follow, for the same basic reason. (They each thoroughly enjoyed persecuting each other!)

Why you are going off on Quakers I don't know, because I certainly don't know that many of them have come to Alaska, though it is possible they were at fault in that one village it makes no difference because it was almost universal amongst all missionaries with the single exception of the Russian Orthodox Church.

And, if you want to find out whether genuinely civilized people thought such activities were acceptable at the time it really isn't hard to do. Find a copy (it was reprinted in 1970) of Hubert Howe Bancroft's "History Of Alaska" originally published in something like 1886. But to enjoy it the most... read it twice and then find some time when in Anchorage to search out Father Michael Oleksa Father Michael Oleksa - Home and figure out a way to get him to explain where Bancroft's ideas came from, which are valid and which are not. Bancroft didn't like the Russian Orthodox Church. He did treat them with perhaps more respect than some of the others that he clearly considered beyond any redemption. Father Oleksa is an historian who has gone to Russia to see the archives that Bancroft only had dreams of access to, and he is also a bit opinionated himself.

But Bancroft makes it quite clear that the savages were all missionaries, not Natives.

[_redbird_]

Originally Posted by starlite9

Here in Nenana, they use to bring the native children in from the villages to a church school, many against the parents will, they were beaten if they spoke anything but English. That went on into the 1940's or so, many of the elders over the years told me about the schooling system and how they hated it.

Yes, my father was taken to a boarding school without his grandparents consent. The worst part was the wedge driven between tribal members who followed the jesus road and those who remained traditional. I still have cousins who think going to an intertribal is bad.

When he came home for visits, he said his grandmother would not allow him to speak english. And as an adult, he made sure we kids were around traditional song and dance.

[gobrien]

Originally Posted by teamcoltra

And dancing around in circles whooping and hollering thinking that something will happen is a completely sane belief?

I am not meaning to put down the eskimo dancing, OR the quakers, just saying people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

What I meant is that they were imposing their beliefs on others. Forcing them to change. That is not ever the right thing to do.

[teamcoltra]

Originally Posted by Floyd_Davidson

Just as long as they do it the White way, huh?


Nice eh? You call Eskimos savages, and say it's ok for those nice old White folks, because they just didn't know any better and neither should we.

I've got news for you, they knew better then. They knew better in 1621 when the Puritans got off the Mayflower and signed their little pact. They weren't looking for freedom of religion, as is commonly thought in the US today... they wanted the freedom to persecute anyone they felt like. No civilized country in Europe would tolerate it, so they came to the New World. And damned if the Quakers didn't immediately follow, for the same basic reason. (They each thoroughly enjoyed persecuting each other!)

Why you are going off on Quakers I don't know, because I certainly don't know that many of them have come to Alaska, though it is possible they were at fault in that one village it makes no difference because it was almost universal amongst all missionaries with the single exception of the Russian Orthodox Church.

And, if you want to find out whether genuinely civilized people thought such activities were acceptable at the time it really isn't hard to do. Find a copy (it was reprinted in 1970) of Hubert Howe Bancroft's "History Of Alaska" originally published in something like 1886. But to enjoy it the most... read it twice and then find some time when in Anchorage to search out Father Michael Oleksa Father Michael Oleksa - Home and figure out a way to get him to explain where Bancroft's ideas came from, which are valid and which are not. Bancroft didn't like the Russian Orthodox Church. He did treat them with perhaps more respect than some of the others that he clearly considered beyond any redemption. Father Oleksa is an historian who has gone to Russia to see the archives that Bancroft only had dreams of access to, and he is also a bit opinionated himself.

But Bancroft makes it quite clear that the savages were all missionaries, not Natives.

Man floyd you caught me.... Only white people can be right. Be damned with the rest of them. Oh btw, lets start hang'n gay people and bring back lynching.

Come on, you know I don't think of native people as savages... the truth of the matter is the white people back then did... White people thought of natives as savages hell up until about a hundred years ago. I just am saying you can't say these people are evil because they believe something different then you. They are just different.

I heard a story about how there was once an eskimo tribe leader, and any time someone would propose an alternative to his suggestion, he would say "it could be that way". I don't remember the whole story... (oh no, I forgot a story about an Eskimo tribal leader, clearly this also shows my racism) but my point is that this Eskimo tribal leader had an open mind about things. Perhaps it would be nice for you to as well. See both sides of an issue instead of just your own.

Again, what they did was not right, but that does not mean that they did not do it for the right reasons. None of them got on a ship and said "I am going to risk my life so I can make other peoples lives hell and boss them around" they did it because they THOUGHT they were doing a good thing.

If we want to start casting fingers, I can start pointing them your way too, as that saying goes, you point at someone else, you have 3 pointing back at you.

What about the fact that these quakers have been gone for so long, and it was clearly an unenforced rule that just never got taken off the books. They COULD have danced again, but they DIDN'T. This should be more about the native youth taking up a culture that their parents have abandoned more than pointing fingers at other.

[RDawg]

Originally Posted by teamcoltra

...what they did was not right, but that does not mean that they did not do it for the right reasons. None of them got on a ship and said "I am going to risk my life so I can make other peoples lives hell and boss them around" they did it because they THOUGHT they were doing a good thing.

Moose nuggets!

They didn't grab their mukluks and head out to brave the hardships of the frozen north solely to minister to the poor, wayward savages (that's sarcasm, Floyd, so hold your fire). Their primary interest lay in getting their own sorry butts to the pearly gates. To have a few native souls in tow when they got there might have been a distant second.