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My point is that if the American West Indian population assimilated into African American community than Caribbean carnivals throughout the eastern half of the USA simply would no longer take place because the West Indians would be fused with the AA community. They wouldn't bother to dress up in those costumes and dance to the up-tempo beats. For example within my own family they don't necessarily oose with Caribbean vibes but at the end of the day they still go to the Carnivals, buy Roti and Chicken in the Caribbean shops.
Yes, non Caribbeans attend Carnivals and parties but unlike a Half or full Caribbean person you won't have that ''feeling'' that your being loyal to your culture - I can't really explain it.
Even 3rd generation British Caribbeans try to speak the dialects, eat the food and talk about their culture after probably 50 years of their family being in this Country!
There are whole areas in NYC that are very West Indian I've heard and that will not change anytime soon - maybe blend a little.
The Caribbean community in NYC does not represent the entire population of Caribbeans in the US. I am from Los Angeles and while there is a great diversity of people from the Caribbean and Latin America in SoCal (including many who celebrate their culture) they do not tend to date/marry within their respective cultures. And the West Indian communities in NYC is already very blended. Trinis with Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans with African American, Belizean with Dominican....etc, etc.
Also, many Caribbeans join African American organizations, attend predominantly African American churches, attend predominantly African American schools and colleges, buy African American products, eat African American food (and Mexican and Italian and Chinese and Thai and Indian, etc. food)
The reason why the riots happened was because of the innocent murder of a young black man in North London -institutionalised racism in the police is a big thing over here.
However as I live in the UK I naturally know more than you, whites, Asians, Chinese people everyone from all backgrounds participated in the riots because of the issues that UK government seem to either dismiss or ignore. The UK government at the time were cutting a lot of services that effected the working class /lower middle class British of this Country (of all ethnicities) This and the fact that Mark's innocent death leaded to the riots.
Though the media may tell you or may come across that it was mostly blacks involved in the riots it isn't true.
Yes, the very first article that in Calipoppy's post states that "black" and "white" young people rioted and speaks about the different issues involved, including youth unemployment. Another speaking about Asian Muslim young people that were killed by police. It seems that this poster takes issue with ethnicities other than her own, especially those of significant African heritage, particularly when it comes to efforts to define themselves as a community.
Suriname is not a Caribbean island. Again. If you are including places that have Caribbean Coasts then almost all Central American nations count.
The Caribbean island nations and places share historical similarities often sharing more than one colonial power over different periods of time and lots of migration among each other.
I think that warrants a unique sense of identity.
Again, if you arent challenging the Asian box or the Hispanic/Latino box, then you should have no issues with a Caribbean box.
It's quote akward that someone like yourself who claims to be from Guyana or the Caribbean (if you really even are such) would challenge the idea or motion for a Caribbean box. O_o
You see there you go again. Who gives YOU the right to determine who is and who isnt Caribbean. Suriname is in CARICOM. Surinamese are culturally very Caribbean. Suriname has almost nothing to do with Latin America.
So why do they not have the right to be CARIBBEAN.
It is precisely this reason why your Caribbean ID will fail. You will rant that Guyana and Suriname are South American and so should be dumped with the Bolivians and Argentines. They will say that the Guyanese are way too CARIBBEAN to be considered bona fide South American nations, but for an accident of beingt located there.
So the notion of Caribbean ID fails because we cant even agree who is a Caribbean person.
And who gives YOU the right to claim that an Indo trinidadian Hindu has the same culture and identity that you have? Please do not suggest that Trinidad isnt Caribbean now.
I mean Haiti and the DR share the same island and yet seem to have huge problems with each other. How many DRs think that they have anything in common with Haitians? If you ask a dominican what are they Latin or AfroCaribbean how do you expect them to respond. And yes they will equate Caribbean=AfroCaribbean because that is how Caribbean is seen in the USA.
The US census has to use measures that most accurately reflect populations. So putting people into the "racial/Hispanic" boxes, based on how they see themselves, and then asking for further definition based upon ethnic/national identity, will guarantee the most accurate results.
And it is an argument that will most likely succeed, because it means just adding a line or two more, rather than a lengthy definition about who is "Caribbean" and then telling Arabs, and others why they cannot also get their own box.
and acquaintances who are half Caribbean and half African (or Caucasian or Asian) American.
ETA: I actually do understand the OP's point regarding preserving heritage, but in my experience most Caribbean people tend to marry outside of their respective community in the US.
I differentiate arguing that Caribbean people need a separate boxfor US census purposes from one about whether Caribbean people have a right to self identify as Caribbean or not.
Most Caribbean people, and their kids, participate, often or occassionally (it depends on the person) with Caribbean culture. And that goes beyond going to a party.
And they define themselves as Caribbean, based on their notions about what being Caribbean is about, as clearly no one can uniformly define this in a way that makes every one happy.
Now the way I see it an AA demanding that we should abandon who we are is like a white American telling an AA to abandon who you all are. People's identities are important to how they perceive themselves and refelct what is valuable to them.
The histories of transAtlantic blacks differ based upon where we found ourselves. In fact even WITHIN the USA the experiences were not uniform. So it makes no sense to try to squeeze every one who shares a sub Saharan African ancestry in one box...because "this is how the white man sees it".
This is why I advocate that the "African/African American/Black" US census category to be subdivided to allow people to reflect their ethnic self identity. Fact is that 15% of the blacks living in the USA are now foreign born, so when we add their kids, we are talking about a lot of folks.
The Caribbean community in NYC does not represent the entire population of Caribbeans in the US. I am from Los Angeles and while there is a great diversity of people from the Caribbean and Latin America in SoCal (including many who celebrate their culture) they do not tend to date/marry within their respective cultures. And the West Indian communities in NYC is already very blended. Trinis with Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans with African American, Belizean with Dominican....etc, etc.
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There is fluidity in identities. Many AfroCaribbean people have a sharp sense in being Caribbean, yet feel connected to AAs by virtue of a shared experience of being black.
I dont know what marrying an AA means to whether one self identifies, based on the dominant black identity in SoCal, which will be AA (as defined by those who are descended from US slavery), or continues to have an identity based on their place of birth.
I know you will not tell me that an AA ceases to be AA just because they married a white person.
I like the fact that UK gets more specific with it's categories.
Yes they do what I am saying that we should do. Count blacks, but then allow them to self identify based on their ethnic affilation. They allow "Caribbean", "African" and "other".
Indo Caribbean people do not check this box, unless they self identify as black.
What they do not do is to attempt to lump all sorts of people who may not feel connected to each other, merely because their ancestry comes from some island...and exclude others, merely because they do not have a Caribbean coast, as you suggest.
I agree Caribbean people do tend to ''go with the flow'' they tend to blend into the wider society way more easily than other groups. They're also more excepted by the White population, for example White Brits wine against the trucks on Notting Hill carnival!
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Yet every analysis of the various ethnic groups shows that Caribbean British blacks trail every one, other than the British Asian Muslims, when we look at education and household income.
And British Muslims have special problems, given the way that they treat their females, which reduces their ability to financially contribute to the household. They are also more concentrated in the decaying industrial belt, whereas 60% of Caribbean British blacks are in the economically vibrant London area.
Even a British PM made reference to the AfroCaribbean "pathology", and many Africans do not wish to be connected to that group. It appears as if many Caribbean British are trapped among the white British under class. Whereas most British Indians and African British have escaped this.
I differentiate arguing that Caribbean people need a separate boxfor US census purposes from one about whether Caribbean people have a right to self identify as Caribbean or not.
Most Caribbean people, and their kids, participate, often or occassionally (it depends on the person) with Caribbean culture. And that goes beyond going to a party.
And they define themselves as Caribbean, based on their notions about what being Caribbean is about, as clearly no one can uniformly define this in a way that makes every one happy.
Now the way I see it an AA demanding that we should abandon who we are is like a white American telling an AA to abandon who you all are. People's identities are important to how they perceive themselves and refelct what is valuable to them.
The histories of transAtlantic blacks differ based upon where we found ourselves. In fact even WITHIN the USA the experiences were not uniform. So it makes no sense to try to squeeze every one who shares a sub Saharan African ancestry in one box...because "this is how the white man sees it".
This is why I advocate that the "African/African American/Black" US census category to be subdivided to allow people to reflect their ethnic self identity. Fact is that 15% of the blacks living in the USA are now foreign born, so when we add their kids, we are talking about a lot of folks.
This is well said...thank you. Again, to me, whatever allows for all of us to recognize our Caribbean background AND gives us the opportunity to recognize our specific ethnic heritages as well.
This is well said...thank you. Again, to me, whatever allows for all of us to recognize our Caribbean background AND gives us the opportunity to recognize our specific ethnic heritages as well.
OK I am glad that we have agreement. I know that in 2000 and in 2010 there were Indo caribbean advocacy groups which told Caribbean Indians to check the Asian Indian box, and then write in something that suggested a Caribbean connection. Either place of birth, or Indo Caribbean, what ever people were mnost comfortable with.
If this is adopted we will be able to collect data on Caribbean Hispanics, Non Hispanic caribbean blacks (or mixed,as the census now allows this, if people prefer), and Indo Caribbean people. Unfortunately the population of non Hispanic Caribbean Chinese and whites is too small for this data to be collected.
OK I am glad that we have agreement. I know that in 2000 and in 2010 there were Indo caribbean advocacy groups which told Caribbean Indians to check the Asian Indian box, and then write in something that suggested a Caribbean connection. Either place of birth, or Indo Caribbean, what ever people were mnost comfortable with.
If this is adopted we will be able to collect data on Caribbean Hispanics, Non Hispanic caribbean blacks (or mixed,as the census now allows this, if people prefer), and Indo Caribbean people. Unfortunately the population of non Hispanic Caribbean Chinese and whites is too small for this data to be collected.
It would be great for Caribbean Indians to have a box under Asian, but as previously noted, the population size may be the issue. Because they do often see themselves as distinct from those straight from India just as from Caribbean people of African descent. The Caribbean Chinese could also write in their origin as well. Unfortunately, for Caribbean people who are of European, Syrian or Lebanese descent, they would have no such option.
This would allow for the counting of all Caribbean people in general and for our heritages. But I'm not against the CaribID either, whatever works.
I do agree that it is high time for the U.S. to create cultural/regional/country boxes for Africans & African descendants. It is quite ignorant for them to acknowledge diversity for other groups but not people of African origin. But then, that is the result of "whites" labeling African descendants by color from the days of slavery and colonialism and not wanting to let go of it. There would like be pushback from African-American as well though, but that should not stop other groups of African origin.
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