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The creoles domiciled in eastern gulf region (not just new orleans) were part of the same rumi network of pirates, privateers & planters as the frankish & ladino west indian companymen were.
Here is one of the citing I mentioned in the previous post. This is in general for the Spanish Empire in volume II of "The Present State of Spanish Colonies" by William Walton (an English). This was published in 1810 or 12 years before the arrival of the Haitians during the longest time they had control of the Dominicans. Given the length of that time, most influences from Haiti in the DR is mostly from that period as one of the policies of the Haitian government was to Haitianize the esstern part in customs, beliefs, etc since they wanted a more uniform Haitian society. This often went head-to-head with Dominicans since, for exampke, Spanish was forbidden in all official documents and functions, and in theory instructions in school were supposed to be in French. I say supposedly because focusing on language alone, Dominicans never learn French during that time, speaking speaking volumes not just to Dominican resistance to Haitianize themselves, but alao how effective was the government of Haiti to take laws written in a book and making them followed in reality.
Anyway, Dominicans had been subjected to the following well before the Haitian invasion that started the Haitian Domination of 1822 to 1844.
A have yet to find the other one I said I will bring because even though I remember resding it, I don't remember exactly in what book. There are only a handful of books that I'm sure the passage coukd be in, so once I find it I will put it here.
The following is in the 2 volumes books published by Martinique-born Cap Francais (now Cap Haitian) resident Moreau de Saint-Mary in a book that has one of longest titles wver created "Description of the Spanish Part of Santo Domingo etc, etc, etc and more etc." This was published in the 1790's, but much of it was already written by 1789. The disturbances that arose in Saint-Domingue (now Haiti) retarded the publishing which was done in Paris, France.
These things probably aren't going to be liked by racists such as CaribNY, but so be it. lol
By the time the Haitians arrived and took control of Dominicans, the later had this mode of living ingrained in them since many centuries before.
How can anything that has been part of a culture for centuries before it's controlled by a different culture will be seen as reactions to this control and to this culture when, as stated already, is something that preceded that? Its like saying the reason Dominicans speak Spanish is to differentiate themselves from the French/Creole speaking Haitians, as if Dominicabs ever spoke French/Creole. The real reason Dominicans speak Spanish is because by the time the Haitians arrived it had been speaking Spanish for over 300 years as most of that it was part of the Spanish Empire. Literally, it has nothing to do with the Haitians. This repeats itself on many other aspects where it's proported Dominicans do this or think that to differentiate themselves from the Haitians. Its almost as if they pretend everything that happened before the Haitians arrived didn't exist. lol
If a map of Hispaniola is created with two shades, one for Spanish and the other French/Creole, the initial about 200 years the entire island would be shaded for Spanish. Then the shade for French/Creole would appear for the western part, but the central and eastern part would continue to be shaded for Spanish and this includes the entire time of the Haitian Domination (1822 - 1844) all the way to today. The eastern part didn't start speaking Spanish during or after the Haitian Domination. Under this hypothesis, how could anyone say Dominicans speak Spanish to differentiate themselves from the Haitians? That's ridiculous at best.
It has to be said that this was the opposite of how things were in the French part of the island as Moreau de Saint-Mery explains in his other 2 volumes book "Description of the Frnch Part of Santo Domingo" (aka, Haiti). I'm sure this was different from what was experienced in other parts of the Caribbean such as the British West Indies to name one (Jamaica, St Lucia, Barbados, Guyana, Antigua & Barbuda, The Bahamas, etc).
Natural growth, further mixture and immigration from Haiti (in that order, the first two taking a greater of share as now evidenced in the multiple DNA reports available where most Dominicans don't even register any ancestral connection to Haiti, but most doesn't means all and it doesn't mean the ones that do are two or three) explains much of the changes in the DR since then.
As said before, when I find the other passage I will post it here.
i think what happens alot too is that in the USA, they are very race focused that they have for example a dominican who is black by race for example, we think it has to do with black americans, and we are not african american so we either put white, mixed, or other
True. This differentiation from another group is common in how ethnicities/nationalities form, see for example the formation of Canadian identity had a lot to do with differentiating themselves from the UK and the US.
Here it is. Ironically, it was in a book about Haitian emperor Faustin Soulouque by Gustave D'alaux but the version I have is the translated to English version by John L. Parkhill.
Here describing aspects of the Dominicans at the time of the arrival of the Haitians. It leads to the question: How can any of this be "Dominicans differentiating from Haitians" when it predates the arrival of Haitians? You can't produce a differentiation of a difference that already existed prior to that time. That would be the equivalent of discussing "Haitian differentiation of the Dominicans, which isn't even mentioned precisely because Haitians didn't originate from Dominicans or the DR. Did Dominicans originate from Haiti?*
Other stuff found here and there through this book in searching for the above. This is not presented in any particular order.
The next two are of certain treatments the Haitian government gave Dominicans during the Haitian Domination.
What the Haitian people (vs the Haitian politicians and top level of the military) thought of their government constantly menacing the Dominicans. Notice there was a schism between what was the opinion of most Haitians vs their politicians.
* The following is part of the Dominican manifiesto in declaring its independence from Spain in 1821, quickly deposed with the invasion of the Haitians that resulted in the Haitian Domination 1822-1844. If we were to assume Dominicans evolved from Haiti (hence the differentiation argument), why before Haitian control did the people of the east called themselves Dominicans? Why call themselves Dominicans at that time and not only after the Haitian Domination if in fact Dominicans arise from Haitians?
Edited to add: Keep in mind the creation of the Dominican Republic was 23 years into the future, almost one more generation.
Here is one of the citing I mentioned in the previous post. This is in general for the Spanish Empire in volume II of "The Present State of Spanish Colonies" by William Walton (an English). This was published in 1810 or 12 years before the arrival of the Haitians during the longest time they had control of the Dominicans. Given the length of that time, most influences from Haiti in the DR is mostly from that period as one of the policies of the Haitian government was to Haitianize the esstern part in customs, beliefs, etc since they wanted a more uniform Haitian society. This often went head-to-head with Dominicans since, for exampke, Spanish was forbidden in all official documents and functions, and in theory instructions in school were supposed to be in French. I say supposedly because focusing on language alone, Dominicans never learn French during that time, speaking speaking volumes not just to Dominican resistance to Haitianize themselves, but alao how effective was the government of Haiti to take laws written in a book and making them followed in reality.
Anyway, Dominicans had been subjected to the following well before the Haitian invasion that started the Haitian Domination of 1822 to 1844.
A have yet to find the other one I said I will bring because even though I remember resding it, I don't remember exactly in what book. There are only a handful of books that I'm sure the passage coukd be in, so once I find it I will put it here.
The following is in the 2 volumes books published by Martinique-born Cap Francais (now Cap Haitian) resident Moreau de Saint-Mary in a book that has one of longest titles wver created "Description of the Spanish Part of Santo Domingo etc, etc, etc and more etc." This was published in the 1790's, but much of it was already written by 1789. The disturbances that arose in Saint-Domingue (now Haiti) retarded the publishing which was done in Paris, France.
These things probably aren't going to be liked by racists such as CaribNY, but so be it. lol
By the time the Haitians arrived and took control of Dominicans, the later had this mode of living ingrained in them since many centuries before.
How can anything that has been part of a culture for centuries before it's controlled by a different culture will be seen as reactions to this control and to this culture when, as stated already, is something that preceded that? Its like saying the reason Dominicans speak Spanish is to differentiate themselves from the French/Creole speaking Haitians, as if Dominicabs ever spoke French/Creole. The real reason Dominicans speak Spanish is because by the time the Haitians arrived it had been speaking Spanish for over 300 years as most of that it was part of the Spanish Empire. Literally, it has nothing to do with the Haitians. This repeats itself on many other aspects where it's proported Dominicans do this or think that to differentiate themselves from the Haitians. Its almost as if they pretend everything that happened before the Haitians arrived didn't exist. lol
If a map of Hispaniola is created with two shades, one for Spanish and the other French/Creole, the initial about 200 years the entire island would be shaded for Spanish. Then the shade for French/Creole would appear for the western part, but the central and eastern part would continue to be shaded for Spanish and this includes the entire time of the Haitian Domination (1822 - 1844) all the way to today. The eastern part didn't start speaking Spanish during or after the Haitian Domination. Under this hypothesis, how could anyone say Dominicans speak Spanish to differentiate themselves from the Haitians? That's ridiculous at best.
It has to be said that this was the opposite of how things were in the French part of the island as Moreau de Saint-Mery explains in his other 2 volumes book "Description of the Frnch Part of Santo Domingo" (aka, Haiti). I'm sure this was different from what was experienced in other parts of the Caribbean such as the British West Indies to name one (Jamaica, St Lucia, Barbados, Guyana, Antigua & Barbuda, The Bahamas, etc).
Natural growth, further mixture and immigration from Haiti (in that order, the first two taking a greater of share as now evidenced in the multiple DNA reports available where most Dominicans don't even register any ancestral connection to Haiti, but most doesn't means all and it doesn't mean the ones that do are two or three) explains much of the changes in the DR since then.
As said before, when I find the other passage I will post it here.
damn this is really good
so basically dominicans have been speaking spanish in the low when occupied by haiti
and yes this also means that dominican spanish is very old
however since lot of our spanish is picking up english words, we likely dont know how we would a spoken spanish pre haitian occupation
but its safe to assume it was something akin to old cibaeno speech from ppl that are like 80+ years old today
me personally, im not saying DR is a black country like a jamaica or haiti
all i said was i DR is a mulatto nation with a slight SSA dominance, and taino minority that can range from 1-20% (majority being in the 4-10% range average) maybe more than 20% but who knows, def not as much as the african and euro
it is said that our spanish sounds like how they would a spoken in the canary islands and andaluzia over 400+ years ago and that the spanish spoken in spain today is actually the one that changed similar to how appalachian english is an old british dialect with scots irish influences
but as i said before, we really dont know, non of us today alive were there at those times
we can only speculate and read from reports of those days and assume their correct
for sure the hispaniolan population in the 1500s and onward was already mixed, it looked practically the same as today but with less than 10 000 ppl, from the whitest of the white to the blackest of the black and ofc tri racials mestizos and some natives in there
True. This differentiation from another group is common in how ethnicities/nationalities form, see for example the formation of Canadian identity had a lot to do with differentiating themselves from the UK and the US.
Not the same. With the case of Canada vis-a-vis the UK and the US is that Canada arosed from the UK and there are extreme similarities between Canada and the USA. Ironically, the similarities between Canada and the USA are greater than similarities between the DR and Haiti.
Many of the differences that exist between the DR and Haiti were already there by the time the Haitians arrived. They have nothing to do with Haiti, because had Haiti never invaded the DR was still going to be like that. In the same token that Dominicans didn't originate from Haiti since their identity was already formed prior to the arrival of the Haitians. Unlike Haiti which first created its state and the through several years constructed its identity to make of the population identify as one, the Dominican nationality predates not just the creation of the Dominican state, but also the arrival of the Haitians.
Even today there are many nations without a state such as the Kurds in Iraq/Turkey/Syria to name one of several others. Italy would be similar to Haiti on this respect, since Italy was created first and then through the years Italian politicians were committed in making of all the people in the Italian peninsula into Italians. To put it another way, there was no such thing as Italians before Italy, but there is such as thing of the Kurds since they still don't have their own country.
By the time the Haitians took over the Dominicans, the later already were calling themselves Dominicans and msny of the things often assumed to be a reaction of Dominicans to Haitians (implying that it begsn to exist with the arrival of the Haitians) aren't in fact reactions to Haitians. Had the Haitians never took over, the Dominicans would still have these ideas, identity, etc becsuse the origin of those things never were the Haitians.
so basically dominicans have been speaking spanish in the low when occupied by haiti
and yes this also means that dominican spanish is very old
More like continue to speak Spanish normally, not "in the low." During that entire time the Haitians were mostly government officials and military men. There was also the feeling of "you are not going to tell me what to do on my land, I was already here when you came along."
Quote:
Originally Posted by HISPANIOLAN
however since lot of our spanish is picking up english words, we likely dont know how we would a spoken spanish pre haitian occupation
There are many documents and books from before the Haitian Domination to the point linguist do know how Spanish was spoken before then. What is telling is that in Dominican Spanish there are more Taino and even English words than any in Haitian Creole. In fact, there are more Spanish words in Haitian Creole than vice versa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HISPANIOLAN
but its safe to assume it was something akin to old cibaeno speech from ppl that are like 80+ years old today
Dominican Spanish was greatly influence from the Spanish in the Canary Islands. When people think about the new slaves, they simply picked up the language as they heard it, in this case a ver Canary Islands influenced Spanish. That was basically the only Spanish they knew since it was the only one they heard from craddle to grave. It's similar how in African American English there is evident much influences from Ireland and Scotland. That's the English all around them, so that's the English they adopted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HISPANIOLAN
for sure the hispaniolan population in the 1500s and onward was already mixed, it looked practically the same as today but with less than 10 000 ppl, from the whitest of the white to the blackest of the black and ofc tri racials mestizos and some natives in there
That was before the Devastations of Osorio in 1606. Ironically, what he did is part of the reason why the French settled in the western end and later Haiti came to be. A lot of the people not only were forcibly moved eastward closer to Santo Domingo, but many left the island to settle in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Colombia, etc. That also meant that many of those whites and mixed folks that left didn't left behind their most productive assets: the slaves. The devastation affected all society since for a long time after that it was plunged into a more severe economic crisis that further encouraged emigration. When the Spanish crown began to incentivize immigration from the Canaruy Islands to Santo Domingo, the population already on the island had been very reduced. The most critical point was in the first half of the 18th century when the entire colony hit a rock botton of 6,000 people. There are more than that today in many neighborhoods in Santo Domingo city alone. This is why Canarian immigration, while small numerically had an even greater effect because they were arriving to a land that was depopulated. Its not the same for say 10,000 people to move to a place with 1,000 people there than 10,000 moving to a place with 10,000,000.
More like continue to speak Spanish normally, not "in the low." During that entire time the Haitians were mostly government officials and military men. There was also the feeling of "you are not going to tell me what to do on my land, I was already here when you came along."
There are many documents and books from before the Haitian Domination to the point linguist do know how Spanish was spoken before then. What is telling is that in Dominican Spanish there are more Taino and even English words than any in Haitian Creole. In fact, there are more Spanish words in Haitian Creole than vice versa.
Dominican Spanish was greatly influence from the Spanish in the Canary Islands. When people think about the new slaves, they simply picked up the language as they heard it, in this case a ver Canary Islands influenced Spanish. That was basically the only Spanish they knew since it was the only one they heard from craddle to grave. It's similar how in African American English there is evident much influences from Ireland and Scotland. That's the English all around them, so that's the English they adopted.
That was before the Devastations of Osorio in 1606. Ironically, what he did is part of the reason why the French settled in the western end and later Haiti came to be. A lot of the people not only were forcibly moved eastward closer to Santo Domingo, but many left the island to settle in Cuba, Puerto Rico, Mexico, Colombia, etc. That also meant that many of those whites and mixed folks that left didn't left behind their most productive assets: the slaves. The devastation affected all society since for a long time after that it was plunged into a more severe economic crisis that further encouraged emigration. When the Spanish crown began to incentivize immigration from the Canaruy Islands to Santo Domingo, the population already on the island had been very reduced. The most critical point was in the first half of the 18th century when the entire colony hit a rock botton of 6,000 people. There are more than that today in many neighborhoods in Santo Domingo city alone. This is why Canarian immigration, while small numerically had an even greater effect because they were arriving to a land that was depopulated. Its not the same for say 10,000 people to move to a place with 1,000 people there than 10,000 moving to a place with 10,000,000.
so we basically speak an african influenced canarian spanish
makes sense yeah and the afro influence will vary per region as well
and yes haitian creole does have alot of spanish words and even influences as well, since there were spaniards on their side as well
i heasrd that in the 1500s it was mainly andaluzians, 1600s lot a portuguese came (theory on the "i" sound instead of "r" in cibao speech) and heavy canarian migration in the 1700s which is where DR spanish came to what it is today plus the african slaves
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