I never knew how much I missed Michigan till I lived in Tucson (Phoenix: ski resorts, purchase)

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by actinic

On top of certain peaks? Whats your source?

Peaks no, in towns in higher elevations but not peaks as that would be unfair to compare since the snowfall on peaks would be much higher than at the base of peaks or in towns as the snow tends to accumulate and is less prone to thawing cycles throughout the winter. Also, depending on the face of the mountain or peak, snow can accumulate much more on one side compared to others; north face, south face, etc. My sources are, Books of the Southwest; The University of Arizona Library. But here is "less" reliable internet source:

Arizona Climate Summaries

Have fun!

[actinic]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

This was just an example. There is a list of places in Arizona and entire regions that stretch the east/west distance of Arizona that record lower temperatures and much more snowfall than Flagstaff; from the border of New Mexico to the northwest stretches of the Grand Canyon and pockets elsewhere like the Sierras south of Tucson and Mt. Lemon north of Tucson.

Yes, I'm familiar with all those areas but the cumulative quantity and persistence of snow in AZ does not come close to what many northern states, including MI, get. The upper peninsula frequently has snow cover from November til sometimes late April. You do not see this persistence with exception of the highest mountain peaks.

As far as low temps go - parts of AZ certainly gets cold but for a much limited duration plus diurnal temperature variation typically brings high temps (even on cold days) sufficiently above freezing to bring on rapid snow melt except for high alpine areas.

[actinic]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

Peaks no, in towns in higher elevations but not peaks as that would be unfair to compare since the snowfall on peaks would be much higher than at the base of peaks or in towns as the snow tends to accumulate and is less prone to thawing cycles throughout the winter. Also, depending on the face of the mountain or peak, snow can accumulate much more on one side compared to others; north face, south face, etc. My sources are, Books of the Southwest; The University of Arizona Library. But here is "less" reliable internet source:

Arizona Climate Summaries

Have fun!

Better find a different source because this one proves you wrong.

Didn't see one place that comes even close to 250 - 350 inch claim, in fact not even half that amount. Examples: Flagstaff, Hannigan Meadows, Alpine, typically some of the snowiest areas the state has to offer.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by actinic

Yes, I'm familiar with all those areas but the cumulative quantity and persistence of snow in AZ does not come close to what many northern states, including MI, get. The upper peninsula frequently has snow cover from November til sometimes late April. You do not see this persistence with exception of the highest mountain peaks.

As far as low temps go - parts of AZ certainly gets cold but for a much limited duration plus diurnal temperature variation typically brings high temps (even on cold days) sufficiently above freezing to bring on rapid snow melt except for high alpine areas.

I don't think that argument is relative as your description of peaks with snow cover are vague. Since Arizona lies within a mountain range, snow cover can last from September through May, however, given the current drought situation, the duration of snow cover is currently lacking compared to normal years. But do not confuse peaks with the topographical confines for snowfall; as in horizontal distances of snow cover compared to vertical. Suffice to say, the duration of temperatures below freezing in many parts of Arizona are much more constant and consistent than in Michigan, the problem is that most people don't realize the climate changes that exist here. It is much more widely known that Michigan is a cold state but most people think of Arizona as one huge desert. When they think Arizona, they think Phoenix.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by actinic

Better find a different source because this one proves you wrong.

Didn't see one place that comes even close to 250 - 350 inch claim, in fact not even half that amount. Examples: Flagstaff, Hannigan Meadows, Alpine, typically some of the snowiest areas the state has to offer.

I quoted Flagstaff as having an average of 110 inches of snow per year which is accurately stated in the link. As I said, this is a limited view of Arizona climate summaries. I haven't clicked on all 219 "summaries," however each dot represents where a particular reading was taken and doesn't include the areas outside of that small station within the region. So did you find the other source to read up on? Or are you comfortable remaining ignorant of the facts?

Many roads throughout Arizona are closed and impassable "indefinitely" during the winter and many more require chains to pass. Here is a small snipet of the weather this February despite heavy drought conditions:
http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/NorthernAZ-weather-news-020909-dps-road-advisories.362e09c6.html (broken link)

Another internet link:
http://www.currentresults.com/Weathe...wiest-year.php

[LordBalfor]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

LOL, yes thank you! I fixed my error and changed feet to snow! Wow, that would be pure torture! LOL

As for Washington state being more diverse in environments or climates I'd have to disagree. Hawaii, maybe, but the extent of the differences in other state compared to the range, depth, and regions in Arizona with TRUE biological environmental and climactic differences are non-existent. In Washington you have two general areas of biological diversity, the western and northern half of the state characterized by wet, pine covered regions and the eastern, southern half of the state is high desert or grassland. While there are glaciers in Washington and a small "rain forest" on the Olympic peninsula, there isn't a vast difference in climate zones.

In Arizona you have a variation that ranges from one of the hottest, barren sand covered deserts in the world, to vast Alpine Meadows. Just one of the indicators of the variation in climate in Arizona is that this state is home to the metropolitan area with the most days over 100 °F, and the other metropolitan area (in the lower 48 states) with nearly the most days of temperatures below freezing. Phoenix being the metro area with most days over 100° and Flagstaff being the other metro area with most days below 32°.

Well, here's what the USDA hardiness zones maps tell us. Washington state encompasses 8 different climate Zones (1-8) - giving average minimum temp ranges from -50 (zone 1) to 10/15 (zone 8). Arizona encompasses 5 different Zones (5-10) - giving average minimum temp ranges from -20 to 35. Now admittedly, lowest minimum temp is just part of the picture and doesn't take into account things like rainfall or average high temperatures (where Arizona CLEARLY holds an edge), but it still says quite a bit about the range of climates that can be found there. Washington State certainly doesn't have Low Desert, but it has every other type of general environment Arizona has - as well as glacial areas and rainforests. The temperature ranges are a bit different due to latitude (our high deserts are quite a bit cooler than Arizona's (especially in the winter) but the general environment of our high desert is pretty similar to Arizona's high desert (grassland/scrubland with rattlesnakes, jackrabbits etc), the pine forests of the East Slopes of the Cascades are pretty similar to the pine forests of higher elevation Arizona (though you folks have nothing like our giant hemlocks and firs). I do think you have a greater diversity of wildlife.

In any event both are very diverse states, there's no doubt about that - certainly among the most diverse in the country. The key thing though is not really who has the most extreme differences, because some of those places are unlikely be a place anyone will living (the top of Mt Rainier for example) - the key thing is which state has the widest extremes where people actually LIVE. In that regard Arizona probably tops Washington - though so does Nevada and California for that matter.

ARIZONA USDA Hardiness Zone Map

WASHINGTON USDA Hardiness Zone Map

Ken

[actinic]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

I quoted Flagstaff as having an average of 110 inches of snow per year which is accurately stated in the link. As I said, this is a limited view of Arizona climate summaries. I haven't clicked on all 219 "summaries," however each dot represents where a particular reading was taken and doesn't include the areas outside of that small station within the region. So did you find the other source to read up on? Or are you comfortable remaining ignorant of the facts?

Here is your quote:

Throughout Arizona's snowy parts, the average annual snowfall exceeds 250-350 inches of snow per year!

Now I have taken you to task of proving this, you provide a source which not only contradicts your statement but you yourself now question its sampling validiity, then call me ignorant.

I understand, this is a typical response when a person refuses to believe they're wrong. Since you've made the claim the burden of proof lies with you, not me.

[actinic]

Here's another incorrect statement you have made ...

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

Suffice to say, the duration of temperatures below freezing in many parts of Arizona are much more constant and consistent than in Michigan, the problem is that most people don't realize the climate changes that exist here.

Here's the average high/low for Big Rapids, MI located in the central part of the lower peninsula, thus representing a rough median of climate for the state.

http://tinyurl.com/lgkryp

Here's the average high/low for Flagstaff, one of the colder areas in the whole state and within median for higher altitude within the state ...

Average High/Low Temperatures for KFLG : Weather Underground (http://tinyurl.com/n9vy77 - broken link)

Clearly these facts dispute your claim.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by actinic

Here is your quote:

Throughout Arizona's snowy parts, the average annual snowfall exceeds 250-350 inches of snow per year!

Now I have taken you to task of proving this, you provide a source which not only contradicts your statement but you yourself now question its sampling validiity, then call me ignorant.

I understand, this is a typical response when a person refuses to believe they're wrong. Since you've made the claim the burden of proof lies with you, not me.

I've given you the proof but YOU have decided to ignore them based on a sampling of particular stations for a year, 2007 nonetheless, which was one of the worst drought years on record. I don't question its sampling validity, I noted its limitations and the fact that Arizona is in a drought. However, 2005 and 2008 were more "normal" and 2009 wasn't a bad year either. In the end, the average snowfall over a 100, 30, or 10 year period is as they stand and as I quoted.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by actinic

Here's another incorrect statement you have made ...



Here's the average high/low for Big Rapids, MI located in the central part of the lower peninsula, thus representing a rough median of climate for the state.

http://tinyurl.com/lgkryp

Here's the average high/low for Flagstaff, one of the colder areas in the whole state and within median for higher altitude within the state ...

Average High/Low Temperatures for KFLG : Weather Underground (http://tinyurl.com/n9vy77 - broken link)

Clearly these facts dispute your claim.

LOL, no it doesn't, good try but despite the interesting graphs. The facts do state that Flagstaff has more below freezing days than most places in the Lower 48.