Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Which media are you referring to? They're hardly not going to put a non-head of state/government into the media spotlight abroad, are they? Just because she's in the news very frequently here doesn't mean she is abroad
The OP said that he has heard some American college students who couldn't recognize Hilary Clinton,not Asian people.
And that is indeed quite hard to believe.
The discussion seems to be mostly centering around China, with a few mentions of Taiwan, Japan, and Korea; what about India? I think that Indians are quite interested in their domestic politics. Thailand just had a military coup. There are many countries in Asia where I'd certainly say that political interest is greater than in many Western countries, and plenty more that are in about the same place.
I also think it's important to not write off "The West" at the shores of the US, and even when talking about the US. Lots of countries in the West have very high voter turnout, political officials are more accessible to the average citizen and held to much higher standards of accountability, etc. Even in the US, elections from local mayors and representatives can get quiet heated, to say nothing of federal/executive elections. Look at the amount of outrage the left-leaning part of the US had when Bush tried to appoint his lawyer buddy with no credentials to the Supreme Court; look at the outrage that came from conservatives when Obama appointed a Latin-American woman to the supreme court. People are much more politically interested than I think the rest of the world is willing to give them credit for, because the level of political polarization in the US is unlike that of most of the rest of the developed, industrialized world. But, there's a difference between polarization and indifference.
As far as China goes: as I lean more Chinese and gain more Chinese friends, I can tell you with honesty that no, China is in no way, shape, or form anywhere near as politically interested on a social level as any of the Western nations I've been to, aside from people sighing and shaking their head at what they assume is a given in regards to corrupt party officials, paying off local officials to start businesses, etc. The thing is that there is one party here, elections are not given to the general public, etc. There's a general indifference on the matter because people are of the attitude that since they can't change it, why care?
My girlfriend or friends will say that they admire Jinpeng's crackdowns on corruption, and then they'll sigh and say that they're basically just a big show to make people feel better while corruption is still rampant. And then after that, there's very little discussion on the matter, because why? It's not like changing someone's mind will matter since you're never going to have local or national elections. And ultimately, most Chinese people I meet are content enough with this being the case, or they would make more noise. As I've said all up and down, democracy doesn't work for every country and every culture.
A few days ago I was walking down a shopping street and saw a guy selling stickers to place on your metro card to liven them up. Inbetween the US, UK, HK, Korean, and Australian flags was a Nazi swastika. I actually bought it for one kuai, and then showed it to a few of my coworkers and asked them if they knew what it was. Half had no clue. Of the half that knew, most of them were like, "oh, that was the Hitler flag." One of them knew about the holocaust. I have had a couple people ask me about the holocaust, what I know of it, what I think of Hitler, etc - both of them stated that there must have been something awful about the Jews if so many people hated them, and I spent time telling them about Jewish history and how some of my closest lifelong friends were Jews, which made them declare that Hitler was a bad man. Up until then, they were somewhat sympathetic towards him, and saw him as a strong man trying to protect his homeland from invaders, a narrative that ironically paints the Germans to the Jews as the Chinese to the Japanese. So, while plenty of younger Chinese people know who the Nazis were and what the holocaust was, I can tell you with some confidence that they know less about it from official textbooks than they do from romanticized, translated Japanese mangas they downloaded off a torrent.
The discussion seems to be mostly centering around China, with a few mentions of Taiwan, Japan, and Korea; what about India? I think that Indians are quite interested in their domestic politics. Thailand just had a military coup. There are many countries in Asia where I'd certainly say that political interest is greater than in many Western countries, and plenty more that are in about the same place.
I also think it's important to not write off "The West" at the shores of the US, and even when talking about the US. Lots of countries in the West have very high voter turnout, political officials are more accessible to the average citizen and held to much higher standards of accountability, etc. Even in the US, elections from local mayors and representatives can get quiet heated, to say nothing of federal/executive elections. Look at the amount of outrage the left-leaning part of the US had when Bush tried to appoint his lawyer buddy with no credentials to the Supreme Court; look at the outrage that came from conservatives when Obama appointed a Latin-American woman to the supreme court. People are much more politically interested than I think the rest of the world is willing to give them credit for, because the level of political polarization in the US is unlike that of most of the rest of the developed, industrialized world. But, there's a difference between polarization and indifference.
As far as China goes: as I lean more Chinese and gain more Chinese friends, I can tell you with honesty that no, China is in no way, shape, or form anywhere near as politically interested on a social level as any of the Western nations I've been to, aside from people sighing and shaking their head at what they assume is a given in regards to corrupt party officials, paying off local officials to start businesses, etc. The thing is that there is one party here, elections are not given to the general public, etc. There's a general indifference on the matter because people are of the attitude that since they can't change it, why care?
My girlfriend or friends will say that they admire Jinpeng's crackdowns on corruption, and then they'll sigh and say that they're basically just a big show to make people feel better while corruption is still rampant. And then after that, there's very little discussion on the matter, because why? It's not like changing someone's mind will matter since you're never going to have local or national elections. And ultimately, most Chinese people I meet are content enough with this being the case, or they would make more noise. As I've said all up and down, democracy doesn't work for every country and every culture.
A few days ago I was walking down a shopping street and saw a guy selling stickers to place on your metro card to liven them up. Inbetween the US, UK, HK, Korean, and Australian flags was a Nazi swastika. I actually bought it for one kuai, and then showed it to a few of my coworkers and asked them if they knew what it was. Half had no clue. Of the half that knew, most of them were like, "oh, that was the Hitler flag." One of them knew about the holocaust. I have had a couple people ask me about the holocaust, what I know of it, what I think of Hitler, etc - both of them stated that there must have been something awful about the Jews if so many people hated them, and I spent time telling them about Jewish history and how some of my closest lifelong friends were Jews, which made them declare that Hitler was a bad man. Up until then, they were somewhat sympathetic towards him, and saw him as a strong man trying to protect his homeland from invaders, a narrative that ironically paints the Germans to the Jews as the Chinese to the Japanese. So, while plenty of younger Chinese people know who the Nazis were and what the holocaust was, I can tell you with some confidence that they know less about it from official textbooks than they do from romanticized, translated Japanese mangas they downloaded off a torrent.
Seems pretty accurate what you said. I think a lot of times, Western posters look at politics from their own perspective. Well, I should say everybody does. In the US, I think politics has reached an unhealthy obsession for many. Everything is a political statement here. It's ridiculous.
Not sure if you're aware, but I'm going to assume you are just in case, but when you say Nazi swastika, do you mean specifically the design as it appeared on the flag and insignia, with the swastika rotated 45 degrees? The swastika on a 90 degree angle is widely seen from India to Japan in Hindu and Buddhist sites and texts, and does not mean Nazism at all. The swastika predates the Nazis by thousands of years.
You can't say that about Taiwan, where the populace is very well engaged in politics - a big change from the martial law days. Election turnout is around 80%, which far exceeds the turnout in the USA.
Taiwan is a great and thankful exception. I lived and worked there in the martial law days and in the transition. The flowering of engagement has only benefitted Taiwan. But that is largely because of how Taiwan was economically and politically decentralized under the KMT and basically abandoned to local forces.
The challenge for much of Asia is political engagement after one's college days. The harsh reality of economic life and the risk of political engagement ramps up dramatically and moves conversation to the sidelines. Korea is a great example for its extremes: zero manifestations of political fervor in high school years, 180* reversal during college years and 180* reversal again once one is on a career track. It is not DNA but political and economic reality. Peers and older adults think political activism in one's 20s and 30s is a death sentence to one's professional development and will steer clear from most such hires. Same applies for MNCs who have invested in Asia largely for its controlled environment.
Note: I make no comment on the morality of activism only on its realities.
No. It's not even possible in many countries in Asia. One-party and/or Communist regimes. There's nothing to get involved with.
Hillary Clinton has been in the media almost every day for decades now. That "many people cannot recognize" her image is hard to believe.
It was shown on Fox News just a few days ago.
Out of six women they randomly asked, only two recognized Hillary Clinton. (But TV shows are edited, so you never know the true situation.)
They also asked about Nancy Pelosi, and none of the six women recognized her.
A few days ago I was walking down a shopping street and saw a guy selling stickers to place on your metro card to liven them up. Inbetween the US, UK, HK, Korean, and Australian flags was a Nazi swastika. I actually bought it for one kuai, and then showed it to a few of my coworkers and asked them if they knew what it was. Half had no clue. Of the half that knew, most of them were like, "oh, that was the Hitler flag." One of them knew about the holocaust. I have had a couple people ask me about the holocaust, what I know of it, what I think of Hitler, etc - both of them stated that there must have been something awful about the Jews if so many people hated them, and I spent time telling them about Jewish history and how some of my closest lifelong friends were Jews, which made them declare that Hitler was a bad man. Up until then, they were somewhat sympathetic towards him, and saw him as a strong man trying to protect his homeland from invaders, a narrative that ironically paints the Germans to the Jews as the Chinese to the Japanese. So, while plenty of younger Chinese people know who the Nazis were and what the holocaust was, I can tell you with some confidence that they know less about it from official textbooks than they do from romanticized, translated Japanese mangas they downloaded off a torrent.
Honestly I can't believe (educated) Chinese do not recognize Nazi swastika symbol. Many WWII films were shown in China. History textbooks have that too.
Must be a communication problem. Probably 99.9% Chinese do not know how to say "swastika" in English. In Chinese, it is called Wan (borrowed from Buddhism, though it is different). Do you know how to say "Holocaust" in Chinese? I'm sure few Chinese know the English word.
Being interested =/= being involved. In so-called communist countries, people may not have the power to change anything, but they can be interested. “Interested" here only means they enjoy obtaining knowledge and spreading information.
Honestly, it is a logical question to ask whether Jews did something wrong (in Nazi's eyes). I think the Chinese people you talked to have some critical thinking, because the textbooks in China only say Nazis are evil blah blah without telling us the social structure and economical situation in post-WWI Germany. However, those who are truly interested in history and politics will certainly ask deeper questions behind that. At that time, many European countries were antisemitic too, just not that extreme.
Anyway, I lived in China and the west relatively long. I am fluent in both Chinese and English and have real conversations with many people in the two worlds. That's just some of my opinions. It could be wrong.
Last edited by Bettafish; 09-20-2014 at 03:26 PM..
Not sure if you're aware, but I'm going to assume you are just in case, but when you say Nazi swastika, do you mean specifically the design as it appeared on the flag and insignia, with the swastika rotated 45 degrees? The swastika on a 90 degree angle is widely seen from India to Japan in Hindu and Buddhist sites and texts, and does not mean Nazism at all. The swastika predates the Nazis by thousands of years.
Yeah that was a symbol used by early Indo-European(?) tribes in today's Iran, India, Iraq and so on. The earliest dates to 5000 BC. It has been seen in Chinese literature for over a thousand years too, and the only empress of China prescribed its Chinese pronunciation.
Seems pretty accurate what you said. I think a lot of times, Western posters look at politics from their own perspective. Well, I should say everybody does. In the US, I think politics has reached an unhealthy obsession for many. Everything is a political statement here. It's ridiculous.
Not sure if you're aware, but I'm going to assume you are just in case, but when you say Nazi swastika, do you mean specifically the design as it appeared on the flag and insignia, with the swastika rotated 45 degrees? The swastika on a 90 degree angle is widely seen from India to Japan in Hindu and Buddhist sites and texts, and does not mean Nazism at all. The swastika predates the Nazis by thousands of years.
Yeah, that's why I specifically said "Nazi swastika." It's a blood-red background, a white circle, and a black, angular 45-degree swastika... that's why the ones who did know what it was referred to it as the "Hitler flag." They don't seem to draw a correlation between it and the traditional swastika, which you do sometimes see in wood or metalwork on decorations on older buildings, or on jewelry being hawked on the streets.
Honestly I can't believe (educated) Chinese do not recognize Nazi swastika symbol. Many WWII films were shown in China. History textbooks have that too.
Must be a communication problem. Probably 99.9% Chinese do not know how to say "swastika" in English. In Chinese, it is called Wan (borrowed from Buddhism, though it is different). Do you know how to say "Holocaust" in Chinese? I'm sure few Chinese know the English word.
Perhaps many WW2 films were shown here in the past but nowadays? The only ones that get rotation here depict China vs. Japan. Any WW2 films concerning Europe that would make it over here would have to be big-budget US films ala Transformers, etc, and they simply aren't making many of those at the moment. You may not believe it, but this is the reality I've experienced from living here and being on the topic with people in 2014.
Quote:
Being interested =/= being involved. In so-called communist countries, people may not have the power to change anything, but they can be interested. “Interested" here only means they enjoy obtaining knowledge and spreading information.
They can be interested, but the degree of interest in politics I see in the average Chinese person is drastically lower than the interest that I see in most Westerners, whether it's the US, EU, CAN, AU, LATAM, etc. Older Chinese who grew up in an era of political activism are more likely to be tuned into politics, while gen-X on down are largely disinterested other than issues of local corruption. A lot of the time, the political, social, and economic climate of a society has a lot to do with the level of political discourse: older folks grew up in a time of flux for all of the above; post-colonial, post-war political upheaval that led to huge amounts of social and economic upheaval, the rise of the Red Guards and the cultural revolution, where they were encouraged to be an active part of the people's party. That had slowed drastically by the late 70's/early 80's, leading up to now, where you have a one-party system with closed elections, but general economic growth and prosperity for vast millions of Chinese people. There is more concern with getting into a good school, meeting a good spouse, making enough money to buy a nice flat and a nice car than there is in politics that you have no say in regardless. Contrast that with the US where you have two polarized sides in politics and both sides are more or less convinced that the other will lead the nation to armageddon and there is great pressure to not only vote, but tell everyone within earshot of your political beliefs - ban abortion, legalize weed, seal the borders, give minorities special treatment, give no one special treatment, close prisons, imprison everyone, etc etc etc.
Quote:
Honestly, it is a logical question to ask whether Jews did something wrong (in Nazi's eyes). I think the Chinese people you talked to have some critical thinking, because the textbooks in China only say Nazis are evil blah blah without telling us the social structure and economical situation in post-WWI Germany. However, those who are truly interested in history and politics will certainly ask deeper questions behind that. At that time, many European countries were antisemitic too, just not that extreme.
I certainly don't find the question as to whether the Jews did something wrong to be an inherently bad question as far as people who are unaware of the situation goes, but that just proves my point that the average Chinese person knows little about the history and events of the European theater of WW2.
Quote:
Anyway, I lived in China and the west relatively long. I am fluent in both Chinese and English and have real conversations with many people in the two worlds. That's just some of my opinions. It could be wrong.
And that's fine. Ultimately a lot of these arguments are going to break down to one's own perception and exposure to such things. I'm not fluent in Chinese, but I live here now (will be here for some time), have conversations with Chinese people on a daily basis, and I hear conversations on a daily basis on the metro, in restaurants, at BBQ's and tea houses, in parks, etc and I really don't find the level of political discourse to be anywhere near as high as the West.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
