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I repeat that I have no beef with that. I have had Christian -and muslim - friends before now and, while we might debate religion, there was no question of trying to eradicate the others. I suppose I can recall that, as a kid, I was used to the predominance and influence of religion in education, in the community.
It was really after being challenged to 'really read the Bible' that I woke up to just what a crock was being foisted on people, and I began to ask why the church had its fingers in schools, politics the public conscience. That's in the UK; in the USA it is much more pernicious, so I gather.
In daily interactions with people around my town, I've found it to be precisely that and nothing more.
If you mean that religion has an influence on national politics, sure it does and it should not. But I do not find that question relevant when dealing with local people in a social setting. We are all free to believe whatever damn fool things we want - recognizing that is your get out of church free card
I find that to be true in my social circles: my friends, my job. But as they say you can pick your friends, you can't pick your relatives! For me it is the family interactions that are much more difficult. The consequences of being the nonbeliever can range from annoyances to being ostracized or even expelled from your own family. Friendships I can walk away from if I need to, but family is much harder...
I find that to be true in my social circles: my friends, my job. But as they say you can pick your friends, you can't pick your relatives! For me it is the family interactions that are much more difficult. The consequences of being the nonbeliever can range from annoyances to being ostracized or even expelled from your own family. Friendships I can walk away from if I need to, but family is much harder...
-NoCapo
That is true, I have the good fortune of having a largely atheistic family.
Boy do I!! Not just friends but family too. I also live in the heart of the bible belt so every single person that I know is a Christian.....I don't know a single atheist irl. I get so sick of FB posts about "gawd" and the like but I can't get away from it because I'm stuck here. I do want to shake them all but as a former Christian I get where they are coming from. Not everyone knows about my agnostic atheist status but like you I don't engage in the nonsense so you would think they would figure it out.
Nor do I. Well, I know of a few but no real life contact with anyone.
I find your journey to atheism quite fascinating.
Probably the main reason why I am a loner. I could not see me being friends with anyone "devout." Bad match, very bad. I wouldn't want to deal with the stress.
I feel your pain. It is tough to have family members that you would not choose to associate with if they were not family. My wife's side of the family is particularly infested with such people, though on a much lower level I have a couple on my own side to deal with. I can trace about 93.7% of the unwanted drama in my life to such folks. It's toxic, and often, you are forced into false choices of being penalized for taking a stand for your own healthy personal boundaries and personal integrity, and family acceptance. Such folks use their (conditional) love as a bargaining chip to get their way. If your sister hasn't pulled such stunts on you yet, take it as a hopeful sign that the real "her" is still in there somewhere.
It has helped me to realize that sometimes this really boils down to very different personalities. It's easy to forget that simply because someone is a sibling or parent for instance, and thus has a shared history with you, doesn't mean they will at all understand you or that you won't be ships passing in the night. A good friend of mine has a sister like that. He: upstanding member of the community, successful loving father by anyone's standards, totally responsible and mature and a great leader and a great friend in my experience. She: unrepentant convicted double murderer and obvious sociopath, and a lifer in the nearest federal penitentiary. One time before all this went down he and his sister were traveling through their childhood town and he was reminiscing about their wonderful childhood and the great times they had. She looked at him incredulously, for she could only remember her horrible childhood, what terrible parents they had, and how deprived she felt. Same family, same parents, even close in age. So it goes ...
To the point of the OP, I think sometimes the spiritual beliefs of people reflect different brain wiring, personality, and character ... you just have to let things be as they are sometimes, and insist that they do the same for you. Often, never the twain shall meet, and it's a waste of time and energy to try to change what is.
Very nice post mordant (as usual). Yes, it's often times too hard to change what is. I believe people are who they are and there's nothing I can do to change it. If we have some type of commonality then we're fine (in terms of devout friends). But some people you just need to cut the cord or limit contact if that's not feasible.
My sister used to be a very cool person. Then she was sucked into an abyss. A religious abyss. It took what she was and warped her. But the foundation was already set. I think personality, brain wiring, and character certainly plays a huge role like you mention. And I'd add to that with how one grew up. With my sister, she took the abandonment by our mother exceptionally hard. So, I think she turned to her church who offered her the ideology that she is loved by a supreme being. Bigger and badder than anything that ever existed. So maybe it doesn't hurt so much that she didn't have motherly love, but she has the love of an omnipotent, all powerful superpower. I'd say that maybe if that's what it takes to get through life, so be it. But her dark side has deepened and her judgement knows no bounds.
So I don't know. In reference to the OP - if the devout are like her... I'd suggest people shouldn't try to relate and look past it. Just run for it.
...So am I the only non believer who has friends that you just want to grab them and shake all the nonsense out of their heads?
No, you aren't. It is annoying, and sad that so much of our nation's citizenry is clustered in the lower ends of the intellect scale where religion reigns (the more intelligent and educated a group of people, the less religiousity) https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ef-in-religion
But console yourself with the fact that it is psychological glitch--not just lack of intellect--that allows people to "wall off" their belief in religion, and keep it away from the part of the brain that analyzes what is sensible, and what is absurd. This avoids the cognitive dissonance that should pop up when you can see the fossil record of human evolution, but are told to ignore those skeletons and just believe that some supernatural super-human just "made" mankind via supernatural means. Believe the fairy tale, no matter how absurd, because supposedly lots of other people believe the same fairy tale.
You won't be able to get religious people to even THINK about questions like, "Would you really worship a guy on the street who claimed to be a prophet, instead of just calling 911 to get him psychological help?" Or "Isn't it funny that God and miracles were everywhere--until we had science to explain medicine and weather and other natural processes, and at that point God just decided to take a long vacation and keep quiet?
Forget trying to get a real discussion of these: "If Adam and Eve were the first two people, and had 2 sons, where did the rest of the people come from?" Or, "Does it make sense for a creator God to make imperfect human beings and then condemn them for being imperfect?" Or, "What kind of God would allow his son to be tortured to death for ANY REASON--let alone to appease himself for some kind of pent-up anger against the creatures he created?"
No, you aren't. It is annoying, and sad that so much of our nation's citizenry is clustered in the lower ends of the intellect scale where religion reigns (the more intelligent and educated a group of people, the less religiousity) https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ef-in-religion
But console yourself with the fact that it is psychological glitch--not just lack of intellect--that allows people to "wall off" their belief in religion, and keep it away from the part of the brain that analyzes what is sensible, and what is absurd. This avoids the cognitive dissonance that should pop up when you can see the fossil record of human evolution, but are told to ignore those skeletons and just believe that some supernatural super-human just "made" mankind via supernatural means. Believe the fairy tale, no matter how absurd, because supposedly lots of other people believe the same fairy tale.
You won't be able to get religious people to even THINK about questions like, "Would you really worship a guy on the street who claimed to be a prophet, instead of just calling 911 to get him psychological help?" Or "Isn't it funny that God and miracles were everywhere--until we had science to explain medicine and weather and other natural processes, and at that point God just decided to take a long vacation and keep quiet?
Forget trying to get a real discussion of these: "If Adam and Eve were the first two people, and had 2 sons, where did the rest of the people come from?" Or, "Does it make sense for a creator God to make imperfect human beings and then condemn them for being imperfect?" Or, "What kind of God would allow his son to be tortured to death for ANY REASON--let alone to appease himself for some kind of pent-up anger against the creatures he created?"
You are right. That is why the debator has to learn that there is no hope of persuading the other side. All you can do is put the best case. At worst most discussions here have around 10,000 hits a day, which has to be more than regular posters looking in. There is a much wider group of interested people looking in to see who has the best arguments - and they are open to persuasion.
And at best so is the person you debate with. They cannot (to use a totally non -personal and hypothetical situation ) lose debate after debate and be shown that they have no case, no evidence, no rational support and do not even argue fairly or honestly and not have that pile up against the wall of denial. It would take only a small thing. Insignificant, like the pastor of a local church screwing his wife (the debator's, not the pastor's) or a positive identification of the Holy sepulchre as a Hasmonean tomb or even a transitional fossil found showing a link or fish to reptile..oh yes, we have one, don't we?....and the wall of denial would collapse and all those pent up doubts and lost debates would sweep the old faith away.
Could happen any day. And if not, well, think of the lurkers.
Precisely. Most people arguing for fundamentalist ideology (not all, as witness, e.g., RomaniGypsi moving from fundamentalism to deism recently) are not going to be persuaded. But for every one of those there are probably at least 100 lurkers who are furtively trying to find answers to their cognitive dissonance and doubts. Besides, in some ways, the more vociferous the apologist, the more frantically they are trying to paper over the chinks in their own armor. Absolutism takes a LOT of energy to sustain and if I can help them waste some of it, so much the better. That's X units of effort they aren't going to direct at someone more vulnerable.
Precisely. Most people arguing for fundamentalist ideology (not all, as witness, e.g., RomaniGypsi moving from fundamentalism to deism recently) are not going to be persuaded. But for every one of those there are probably at least 100 lurkers who are furtively trying to find answers to their cognitive dissonance and doubts. Besides, in some ways, the more vociferous the apologist, the more frantically they are trying to paper over the chinks in their own armor. Absolutism takes a LOT of energy to sustain and if I can help them waste some of it, so much the better. That's X units of effort they aren't going to direct at someone more vulnerable.
Yes. A number of deconversion stories I read said that at the time they were doing their most vociferous evangelism and apologetics, they were deconverting all that time.
Not that this is an infallible clue. Tom Campbell (C34) went into the tunnel of light still believing firmly the Ark was up on Ararat. But, like you say, it's the lurkers we do it for...yes, you lot out there..and it's great fun too.
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) lose debate after debate and be shown that they have no case, no evidence, no rational support and do not even argue fairly or honestly and not have that pile up against the wall of denial. It would take only a small thing. Insignificant, like the pastor of a local church screwing his wife (the debator's, not the pastor's) or a positive identification of the Holy sepulchre as a Hasmonean tomb or even a transitional fossil found showing a link or fish to reptile..oh yes, we have one, don't we?....and the wall of denial would collapse and all those pent up doubts and lost debates would sweep the old faith away.
