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OK So there are more than 2, and even more as to why I do not attend a church.
BUT let me explain.
Aside from the fact that the negative experiences I have had with any religion, any church or anyone within a church. AND aside from the fact that my two least favorite people on here (One named loosely after a cheap American electronic company and the other named after a 4th century Roman historian) Seem to be over represented in every church I visit. I narrowed two points within the Christian philosophy which I can never accept and which to me, are the biggest of all the flaws (but not the only flaws).
One is the idea that Jesus is going to someday return. I do not believe in this, and I did not believe it even when I was a Christian. Of course, every mythology has a leader whose return is imminent in some way, from Horus to L Ron Hubbard. Jesus , whatever human he was, died over 2000 years ago. While his return has always been "just around the corner" from the week after his death to now, mythology shows a clear pattern of belief in the returning leader. Yet never in any religion, has it happened. The dead do not return, except in myth (and Hollywood) But in fact, Jesus will never walk this earth again. And who would want him to? First, if he could, why would he want to get another dose of what humanity offered last time (torture, execution) and second, who would need him ?
Which leads right into my second reason, why do we need a god ? Science is showing less evidence of a god and more importantly, less of a need for a god. Of course the first answer from most Christians is "To save us from hell" Well, again, this has no proof. It has a belief based in ancient mythology, and maybe in human desire for immortality. It is seated in a desire to see the good rewarded and the wicked punished. Problem is, exactly what this good and evil are has become very blurred. Most commonly, Christians say that the rewards in an afterlife are based entirely on belief (lip service) in life, not in actions, but in belief. meaning an evil person can be rewarded so long as he or she believes the "RIGHT WAY" about God. To me, that is a most preposterous statement. What egotistical wreck would choose friends based only on beliefs? Sounds like an unenlightened narrow minded human. (BTW I can provide names and numbers as references if needed to illustrate this one) I would not want to spend eternity in the company of most Christians I have known. (I did not even want to spend an hour with them on Sunday mornings either) Would I want to spend an eternity around those I consider hateful and abusive in this life? Many of those were Christians. But let us look at this from a scientific standpoint. We have no evidence of an afterlife. We have however, much evidence that when the brain dies, all memory, consciousness and senses die as well. We see this is neurological disease. This is measurable and real. As such, it sadly tells us that we have no afterlife. So why waste this life living by some other religion's rules? (For me, Humanism is the answer, but that is not the topic here) We have no evidence for a Biblical god, and we have no need for one.
Now, on a final note, some of you will be pleased to know I will be on the forum less. My work is taking me out in the world more, and less behind a computer, and that excites me. I will endeavor when I post, to make thoughtful and possibly humorous at times commentary. I will rely on Mystic, Arequipa , TroutDude, Sharina, Mordant and the others to remind me of this. (If I left your name out it is not a slight to you) But I would like commentary, because to me, the two biggest flaws with Christianity are the fact that 1 Jesus is not coming back and no one should loaf around waiting to be saved by god and 2 there is no afterlife, Nor Biblical god, and we really should not need one. (again not the ONLY Flaws, but I'd be writing 500 pages or more to cover all of them)
There is an important point here (thanks for the mention KingKat Time was I would never get a mention amongst the notable heathen posters...your stuffed brown envelope in on the way..) in that what one can prove is not really it. It is almost impossible to prove anything where the fact that the Nativities both say Jesus was born in Bethlehem is proof enough that he was, never mind getting over the contradictory genealogies simply by saying they don't contradict!
It is about what is persuasive. what people will buy. It sure looks as though Jesus was saying he'd be back before they could divvy up his CD collection. Since he didn't come back either in the Jewish war, the turn of the first millennium, the religious wars, the world wars, the atom bomb the 2nd millennium and several end of world claims - one for this new year already on the boards it would make sense to say, as KingKat doth here, he is not coming back.
But some adroit translation -shopping to make 'generation' mean everybody who ever lived or ever will, leaving it nicely open -ended, or 'taste death' rewritten to mean God knows what.. and some 'I'll be counting my money and saying "I told you so".' hellthreats means that you can never Prove it to some who don't want any such proof.
It really is down to - does it look to you like Jesus was talking about the lifetimes of those he was talking to or thousands of years down the line? Realistically, I do not see how anyone can buy into anything but the strictly limited 'their lifetimes', but you can't prove it to those determined to believe that Jesus is coming back...very soon...just you wait.
I just wonder... in view of the increasing gallop from the nasty hellthreat to the nicer UR...what are we waiting for? Ok, Jesus shows up, we get an autograph or two, have our picture taken with him at the Nazareth theme park, gets the the Nobel peace prize ...then what? If there is no judgement, who the heck cares?
The woffle about separation or 'being with' is so much piffle. If we get evaluated and some serious losing out is going to be dished out for those who didn't believe that Jesus walked on water, then hellthreat is still there, even if diluted down to a homeopathic -like consistency. And even a long way short of that - who cares?
Well your 2nd reason gets to the main point of theism which is that there is stuff we don't understand, therefore god. Since there are fewer and fewer things we don't understand then it has less and less appeal to that part of us that tends to want to impose agency in order to feel less threatened and insecure. That is exactly why so much of the energy invested by theists in apologetics focuses on the remaining significant unknowns, such as how the first living things came into existence, the origins of existence itself, etc. There will always be people who, when their attention is directed at such questions, will find "we don't currently know" to be an intolerable answer and will gladly accept a placeholder that claims to completely resolve such questions, and is subscribed to by large numbers of people. It simultaneously relieves the above-described tension, AND provides group dynamics to support that relief, in spades.
I guess I don't care much about the imminent or otherwise return of Jesus as it never did float my boat. I always considered that a bolt-on idea that one could take or leave. I mean, I wouldn't mind Jesus not coming back if he would just be present for me in some tangible way in the meantime. If he had my back, then him coming back in the flesh is just a bonus. Besides, it's supposedly better to live by faith than by sight, so pining for Jesus' soon return seems like an odd thing to do.
LKC, I doubt you need us to remind you to be thoughtful; your posts have always been enjoyed and welcome and I'm sure they will continue to be. Good luck on your new work assignment. A time like that may come for me, too. I currently am a 100% telecommute which means there is no clear start or end to my workday nor really a clear demarcation between work and play. I could see how that would change if I had an on-site gig or a traditional job. As the joke goes, "Jesus is coming ... look busy!"
Sorry to hear that you will not be posting here as much, KingKat . . . but pleased you will be enjoying your work more. As to Christ's return . . . He DID return to the Apostles (and the rest of us) at Pentecost. The carnal expectations of a bodily return and its associated carnal thinking is responsible for the confusion. Jesus never intended or expected to be "born again" in a physical body. He knew His human consciousness would be "born again" in a spiritual body "in His name" (Comforter). That which is born of Flesh is Flesh. That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. We can look forward to the same fate "in our own names." Christ abides with us because He already returned and we have His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts."
As to your second concern . . . I confess to a little confusion about it all. If your issue is with the mainstream descriptions and beliefs ABOUT the Bible God among the majority . . . you know I agree with you. If your issue is with Hell . . . you know I agree with you . . . there is none. However, I do believe that there are consequences that we face for failure to manifest agape love in our little part of the world during our lifetime. But at most we will have to endure whatever negatives we may have imposed on others and not corrected or repented of. If your issue is the afterlife . . . you know I disagree with you. We will ALL be "born again" as Spirit upon our death (our consciousness will survive our physical death). Our consciousness is produced by our body and brain . . . but it is neither. It exists at a different level of being . . . hence we can contemplate Time (past, present and future).
Be well KingKat.
~Mystic
Sorry to hear that you will not be posting here as much, KingKat . . . but pleased you will be enjoying your work more. As to Christ's return . . . He DID return to the Apostles (and the rest of us) at Pentecost. The carnal expectations of a bodily return and its associated carnal thinking is responsible for the confusion. Jesus never intended or expected to be "born again" in a physical body. He knew His human consciousness would be "born again" in a spiritual body "in His name" (Comforter). That which is born of Flesh is Flesh. That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. We can look forward to the same fate "in our own names." Christ abides with us because He already returned and we have His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts."
As to your second concern . . . I confess to a little confusion about it all. If your issue is with the mainstream descriptions and beliefs ABOUT the Bible God among the majority . . . you know I agree with you. If your issue is with Hell . . . you know I agree with you . . . there is none. However, I do believe that there are consequences that we face for failure to manifest agape love in our little part of the world during our lifetime. But at most we will have to endure whatever negatives we may have imposed on others and not corrected or repented of. If your issue is the afterlife . . . you know I disagree with you. We will ALL be "born again" as Spirit upon our death (our consciousness will survive our physical death). Our consciousness is produced by our body and brain . . . but it is neither. It exists at a different level of being . . . hence we can contemplate Time (past, present and future).
Be well KingKat.
~Mystic
That seems odd that though our consciousness is produced by our body and brain, I believe you assert that even after our body and brain die the consciousness continues. This seems contradictory to me.
Sorry to hear that you will not be posting here as much, KingKat . . . but pleased you will be enjoying your work more. As to Christ's return . . . He DID return to the Apostles (and the rest of us) at Pentecost. The carnal expectations of a bodily return and its associated carnal thinking is responsible for the confusion. Jesus never intended or expected to be "born again" in a physical body. He knew His human consciousness would be "born again" in a spiritual body "in His name" (Comforter). That which is born of Flesh is Flesh. That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. We can look forward to the same fate "in our own names." Christ abides with us because He already returned and we have His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts."
As to your second concern . . . I confess to a little confusion about it all. If your issue is with the mainstream descriptions and beliefs ABOUT the Bible God among the majority . . . you know I agree with you. If your issue is with Hell . . . you know I agree with you . . . there is none. However, I do believe that there are consequences that we face for failure to manifest agape love in our little part of the world during our lifetime. But at most we will have to endure whatever negatives we may have imposed on others and not corrected or repented of. If your issue is the afterlife . . . you know I disagree with you. We will ALL be "born again" as Spirit upon our death (our consciousness will survive our physical death). Our consciousness is produced by our body and brain . . . but it is neither. It exists at a different level of being . . . hence we can contemplate Time (past, present and future).
Be well KingKat.
~Mystic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
That seems odd that though our consciousness is produced by our body and brain, I believe you assert that even after our body and brain die the consciousness continues. This seems contradictory to me.
Only because you equate the "production process" with the "product." Products continue to exist even after production processes cease production. We experience reality in a delayed playback mode in this physical body. That is why we identify ourselves with it. But WE (our consciousness) actually exist at a different level of being (different form of energy) than our physical body. What we have produced through our lifetime still exists after we stop adding to it. There is no contradiction.
As to Christ's return . . . He DID return to the Apostles (and the rest of us) at Pentecost. The carnal expectations of a bodily return and its associated carnal thinking is responsible for the confusion. Jesus never intended or expected to be "born again" in a physical body. He knew His human consciousness would be "born again" in a spiritual body "in His name" (Comforter). That which is born of Flesh is Flesh. That which is born of Spirit is Spirit. We can look forward to the same fate "in our own names." Christ abides with us because He already returned and we have His Holy Spirit (Comforter) within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts."
...If your issue is with Hell . . . you know I agree with you . . . there is none. However, I do believe that there are consequences that we face for failure to manifest agape love in our little part of the world during our lifetime. But at most we will have to endure whatever negatives we may have imposed on others and not corrected or repented of. If your issue is the afterlife . . . you know I disagree with you. We will ALL be "born again" as Spirit upon our death (our consciousness will survive our physical death). Our consciousness is produced by our body and brain . . . but it is neither. It exists at a different level of being . . . hence we can contemplate Time (past, present and future).
OK So there are more than 2, and even more as to why I do not attend a church.
BUT let me explain.
Aside from the fact that the negative experiences I have had with any religion, any church or anyone within a church. AND aside from the fact that my two least favorite people on here (One named loosely after a cheap American electronic company and the other named after a 4th century Roman historian) Seem to be over represented in every church I visit. I narrowed two points within the Christian philosophy which I can never accept and which to me, are the biggest of all the flaws (but not the only flaws).
One is the idea that Jesus is going to someday return. I do not believe in this, and I did not believe it even when I was a Christian. Of course, every mythology has a leader whose return is imminent in some way, from Horus to L Ron Hubbard. Jesus , whatever human he was, died over 2000 years ago. While his return has always been "just around the corner" from the week after his death to now, mythology shows a clear pattern of belief in the returning leader. Yet never in any religion, has it happened. The dead do not return, except in myth (and Hollywood) But in fact, Jesus will never walk this earth again. And who would want him to? First, if he could, why would he want to get another dose of what humanity offered last time (torture, execution) and second, who would need him?
As a descendant of former enslaved peoples and a child of the Caribbean, I grew up in a society that had been in "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" mode for ages. We had been suckered into believing that we had nothing on earth to gain and that our eyes were to be turned heavenward for our reward and in the NEXT life, that is when we would live like fat kings and queens in the great beyond. Not surprisingly then, the same notion appealed to early Christians, a sect made up, initially of frustrated Jews under the thumb of Rome, followed by the outcast, destitute, poor, "living while female," slaves and other lower rung people of the Roman Empire. The idea of a powerful savior, coming back to whisk the oppressed and downtrodden away and then turning his attention to pulverizing the evil wicked (often see as the rich folks) has appealed to people even BEFORE Christianity and even among post-exilic Jews.
What I find interesting though, is the fact that in churches where you tend to have a rather wealthy membership, heaven talk is rare. The focus is often on the here and now. Also, you rarely hear grand messages of heaven from televangelists. It is within THEIR best interest to keep their listener's attention on their earthly bank accounts that supplies THEIR needs. Those grand messages of the great beyond has now become primary domain of organizations like the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists which are their great selling points and has been retained in small church America (North, Central and South) where you tend find less fortunate people looking for a cosmic hero to rescue them.
With all of that being said, it does not make it any more real that there is some super-hero (in this case, Jesus) coming back to save anybody. That person that the mythical Jesus in the Gospels is based upon has been long dead and his followers, seeing him as THE candidate for for the role of messiahship could not come to grips with the fact that his demise was "the end." To do so would mean he did not qualify because messiahs don't die or stay dead because they would not be worth their salt. So, to get past this uncomfortable embarrassment required some skillful thinking and what better way to do so than to tell the masses that Jesus just went for an excursion to prepare mansions for the flock and will be back after these messages? 2,000 years and counting, the commercials are still going.
Well, dear one, off you go into the wild blue yander! It's exciting and will in fact further the conviction that you are on to something tangible. I wish you the best, and do check in on us here in hell from time to time.
I of course agree with your post, and like to add my famous ideology and my own science of ideas(at the risk of sounding like a Saturday Night Live skit of Stuart Smalley) : "It's always ok to NOT know"
I don't know why or who we are in relation to the beginning, I don't know where I'll be in the future but right now I know I'm here.
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Time was I would never get a mention amongst the notable heathen posters...your stuffed brown envelope in on the way..) in that what one can prove is not really it. It is almost impossible to prove anything where the fact that the Nativities both say Jesus was born in Bethlehem is proof enough that he was, never mind getting over the contradictory genealogies simply by saying they don't contradict!
it would make sense to say, as KingKat doth here, he is not coming back.
in view of the increasing gallop from the nasty hellthreat to the nicer UR...what are we waiting for? Ok, Jesus shows up, we get an autograph or two, have our picture taken with him at the Nazareth theme park, gets the the Nobel peace prize ...then what? If there is no judgement, who the heck cares? 
2 reasons I do not believe
