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The problem I was talking about is that you can't experience Christian music AS a Christian if you're not a Christian, which was the somewhat Captain Obvious sort of point the poster I was responding to made.
I see. I took it to understand that being atheist, pagan, deist or muslim in the West is problematic.
I see. I took it to understand that being atheist, pagan, deist or muslim in the West is problematic.
It's important to remember that centuries ago it was the churches that had the money to fund these works of art. Da Vinci wasn't a particularly religious man but he received commissions from the Vatican for his artwork.
I like Gregorian Chants, old cemeteries, neat churches especially if they are in decay and some of the music from other religions. My wife and I spent an afternoon in Prague at the Old Jewish Cemetery and even longer the next day at the New one. Just because I do not believe in any gods does not mean I cannot appreciate religious art. I also enjoy abandoned industrial factories and abandoned railway bridges.
To not like a piece of art or music due to it being religious is in my mind robbing yourself of some enjoyment. Same with a Christian not being able to enjoy a First Nations People ceremony or chant.
My wife and I spent an afternoon in Prague at the Old Jewish Cemetery and even longer the next day at the New one.
If I ever make it back to Prague (not likely, but who knows) I will have to do that. My wife and I walked the Jewish Quarter on a very cold November day and turned back before we go to the cemeteries.
I like Gregorian Chants, old cemeteries, neat churches especially if they are in decay and some of the music from other religions. My wife and I spent an afternoon in Prague at the Old Jewish Cemetery and even longer the next day at the New one. Just because I do not believe in any gods does not mean I cannot appreciate religious art. I also enjoy abandoned industrial factories and abandoned railway bridges.
To not like a piece of art or music due to it being religious is in my mind robbing yourself of some enjoyment. Same with a Christian not being able to enjoy a First Nations People ceremony or chant.
The church was certainly the Ni 1 patron of art,back then. There were also rulers of nations and noble houses, and then people with the money to spend on music to play themselves. But the individuals could rarely assemble the big forces needed for grand works.
Later on there was theatre and even music societies that could hire an orchestra. But there was always the problem that the composer had to write what somebody else wanted, not what the composer wanted.
There's also the problem in the Pop world (Rock ff you prefer) of Real groups paying Real rock as against the plastic stuff manufactured to make money.
I agree with your point about 'Robbing yourself'. If you bar music on the basis of political (Wagner, Shostakovich) dislike or religious, there is only one person losing out.
The church was certainly the Ni 1 patron of art,back then. There were also rulers of nations and noble houses, and then people with the money to spend on music to play themselves. But the individuals could rarely assemble the big forces needed for grand works.
Later on there was theatre and even music societies that could hire an orchestra. But there was always the problem that the composer had to write what somebody else wanted, not what the composer wanted.
There's also the problem in the Pop world (Rock ff you prefer) of Real groups paying Real rock as against the plastic stuff manufactured to make money.
I agree with your point about 'Robbing yourself'. If you bar music on the basis of political (Wagner, Shostakovich) dislike or religious, there is only one person losing out.
That happens particularly often in case of the former
And somehow it just so happens that while we have a lot more freedom of self-expression (musicians playing and composing what they want, not what their patrons want), the quality of modern art continues to diminish. We have neither a Wagner nor a Shostakovich nor a Bach anymore.
I have a theory that the problem there is that Music has reached the end of its evolution. It has stretched tonality to the very limits, explored quarter - tones, extremes of dissonance and clashes of unrelated polyphony. Shoenberg worked out logically a way to escape all those restrictions - metre, tonality and even what we'd call normal playing of instruments.
For me the result has been a body off music of which Stravinsky said "Who needs it?" Though he was persuaded to have a bash himself. We have become saddled with a body of modern music that is right up against it in touching us on any level other than magnificent orchestration. Unless some genius invents a music that is saying something new, we are saddled with stuff that at best makes us think a bit, and may come up with a few beautiful noises and interesting chords, but has no lasting value.
That's my feeling anyway. How can I blame an almost total adherence to rock, when Classical music has only Old stuff or incomprehensible stuff to offer?
The composers today are not incapable of composing anything; but they have nothing left to compose.
Basically what I am objecting to is you asserting a unilateral quality of life advantage for believers without acknowledging that whatever advantages a believer gets from religious faith is a tradeoff with something else.
What you actually implied was that non-Christians are missing out on something substantive in Christian religious music by not being Christians. That's not the same as suggesting "everyone should become Christian" and I never said that it was.
Well I suppose I did mean it was a quality of life issue, at least for me, having experienced the same music first as a child who had my religion given to me by my parents, and took it for granted. Then in early adulthood having rejected religion I felt somehow uncomfortably separated from the music that I loved (which, being raised in the Anglican tradition meant I had been exposed to really good music). And then more than a decade later music was definitely a part of my return to the faith as a conscious adult decision-- this time I was choosing it deliberately which made a difference, and I did notice a huge quality of life difference in my appreciation of music (and many other things). Feeling this kind of ownership of sacred music added a new dimension to it for me that was missing before. Like watching a movie that's in 3-D without the glasses, and then putting the glasses on. It made sense to me. So that is my own subjective experience and as a musician who gets to perform both secular and sacred music with other musicians, I know that musicians are all over the map with their belief/unbelief and what music means to them.
Some church musicians I've known will say "all music is sacred", and certainly people of all faiths or none can be brought to tears by secular music (my dad was particularly vulnerable to Rachmaninoff and Elgar).
Before I forget I wanted to point out that there is an effort being made to aid the appreciation of sacred music for nonbelievers, such as this workshop recently, "Leipzig Cantata Project":
"The texts of Bach cantatas were considered even more important than the music. However, present-day audiences, which might be Christian, another religion, atheist, or “merely spiritual,” may not immediately relate to these texts. Our guest speaker (TBA) will help the audience understand the historical context (i.e., what this text meant to baroque audiences) and find present-day context (what this text could mean to any audience member, regardless of religious affiliation)."
Before I forget I wanted to point out that there is an effort being made to aid the appreciation of sacred music for nonbelievers, such as this workshop recently, "Leipzig Cantata Project":
The way I'd tackle it is to perform 4 Bach cantatas - then tell them what two were about. Coffee and a wealthy Merchant Muller's celebrating something. Wealthy!, he could afford to hire Horn players.
Schweigt stille, plaudert nicht (Sit still and shut up) BWV 211 4. Arie S
Ei! wie schmeckt der Coffee süße,
Lieblicher als tausend Küsse,
Milder als Muskatenwein.
Coffee, Coffee muss ich haben,
Und wenn jemand mich will laben,
Ach, so schenkt mir Coffee ein!
4. Aria S
Ah! How sweet coffee tastes,
more delicious than a thousand kisses,
milder than muscatel wine.
Coffee, I have to have coffee,
and, if someone wants to pamper me,
ah, then bring me coffee as a gift!
The point is that the music was the same. I deplore the Victorian habit of lugubrious and miserable and plodding performances of sacred music where there seems to be the idea that playing it fast enough to be exciting is somehow trivializing it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-12-2016 at 03:42 PM..
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that the problem there is that Music has reached the end of its evolution. It has stretched tonality to the very limits, explored quarter - tones, extremes of dissonance and clashes of unrelated polyphony. Shoenberg worked out logically a way to escape all those restrictions - metre, tonality and even what we'd call normal playing of instruments. 
