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I know of church groups who basically gather to 'get their fix' and to be a community. No controlling involved. These are supportive groups and not very large. These are not mainstream church groups.
Those are the sorts of churches I and a secular society could happily accept and support.
The thankless nature of a minister's job and the miserly sums often paid to them suggests how this temptation could exist. That doesn't make it less reprehensible of course, only more understandable.
While I am as ready as anyone to disparage the power trips and manipulation tactics often employed by ministers, I also have known a number of them in my time and quite a few were very sincere, caring, loving, giving people who lived on the edge of poverty to serve a small church. A few of those started out that way and then became disillusioned, but found themselves trained in a profession with near-zero transferrable skills with which to support themselves and their families.
Thank you. We must understand that people are people and ministers are people. As you say, some ministers can find themselves trapped doing a job in which they no longer believe. Matt Dillahunty had a you tube with a guest from ..what was it...some support group for ministers that have lost belief but are stuck in a job without training for anything else - never mind the severe social consequences if they did leave.
When I first started on Fun...ghhmm...Outspoken atheism ..I became aware of the problem of those who had lost faith and badly needed help and support and there wasn't any. This was at the time a religious group was set up to help those who were losing their faith - to help suck them in again.
Well we are getting some practical support groups at last and forums like these help in a small way.
Much more to do. A chicken in every pot, a car in every garage and an atheist support group in every town. That's the aim.
I served as an altar boy with several priests in the late 50s and early 60s. (None, btw, made any kind of move that even hinted at molestation. Although my best friend, in another parish, was molested by one of his priests. I did not find this out until after his death, at age 40, 24 years ago. It pains me to this day.)
All but one of the priests I served with were poor - dollar-wise. The exception was a sole child left a lot of money by his departed mother. He served the longest tenure as parish priest, nearly 30 years. Two of the five - not the well-off one - left the priesthood while I was still a teen. All were good men, driven to serve mankind in some capacity. One of the ones who left the priesthood became a social worker. He gave me a copy of The Hobbit to read when I was 15, for which I will always be grateful. I dunno what happened to the other.
Yes. The religious are good people, generally, like everyone else. Also some bad, like everyone else. The churches themselves are more of a drain on state and society than they are worth. Sure, they can provide support, soup and smoking -rooms. But should not have the clout and influence they do now, because what they teach is either false, or better taught by secularism and that's an end to it.
But I can't help wondering why you are so fearful of going to the point where you actually suffer physically.
It doesn't seem like the op has been back to check on this thread, but I just couldn't let this one go by. Going to church (for the sake of my marriage) made me nauseous as well, and I was going to tell you that it had nothing to do with fear, but to some degree, I guess it did. When I had to sit and listen to people (including my family) being told week in and week out they are worthless sinners deserving of eternal torment, that only believing the magic formula ("Jesus was crucified for your sins") saved them, and that everyone else was "lost", along with all the other tripe that comes along with that, it absolutely turned my stomach.
I will admit the nausea was partly caused by fear... fear that the people sitting in church with me actually bought into it all and were having it reinforced by being there, hearing it over and over again. I know from personal experience what havoc such indoctrination can wreak on a person's mental and emotional well-being. To a degree, I was fearful that just by being there and saying nothing to refute it, I was complicit in causing others to become or to remain trapped.
I think, now, that perhaps most of the people that attend church do NOT take it to heart in the way I did when I was a Christian. I think most people compartmentalize their religious beliefs and don't think about them too deeply, so they don't get mired down in the unsavory and destructive aspects. To them, their religion is sort of a comforting backdrop to their life. Their religious community gives them a sense of belonging and, for some, an opportunity to serve and give, while the dogma that they are being fed is just background noise to which they don't pay much attention.
But, still, it is disconcerting for me to sit and listen to things that I was indoctrinated with from the very beginning of my life. Things which I was not able to compartmentalize in the way it seems most others are, and which caused me cognitive dissonance that was destructive and caused a lot of unbalance and pain in my life. For me, in a way, it's like having to relive an abusive situation every time I set foot in a church. Fortunately, due to our current circumstances, that's not something I have to subject myself to anymore, other then on rare occasions. For that, I'm truly grateful.
If you could get over your feelings, as well described in your statement, below, would that be of benefit? What I mean is that, if you could be hypnotized into changing your built up associations into something more positive and energizing, would the benefits of going exceed the expected costs of not going? If so, perhaps finding a qualified hypnotist could help solve the problem.
As for the dollars, you don't have to give anything or, if you felt that you should (for the same reasons as you feel the pressure to go) you can settle for $5 in an envelope.
I just thought this method may offer a workable compromise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
It doesn't seem like the op has been back to check on this thread, but I just couldn't let this one go by. Going to church (for the sake of my marriage) made me nauseous as well, and I was going to tell you that it had nothing to do with fear, but to some degree, I guess it did. When I had to sit and listen to people (including my family) being told week in and week out they are worthless sinners deserving of eternal torment, that only believing the magic formula ("Jesus was crucified for your sins") saved them, and that everyone else was "lost", along with all the other tripe that comes along with that, it absolutely turned my stomach.
I will admit the nausea was partly caused by fear... fear that the people sitting in church with me actually bought into it all and were having it reinforced by being there, hearing it over and over again. I know from personal experience what havoc such indoctrination can wreak on a person's mental and emotional well-being. To a degree, I was fearful that just by being there and saying nothing to refute it, I was complicit in causing others to become or to remain trapped.
I think, now, that perhaps most of the people that attend church do NOT take it to heart in the way I did when I was a Christian. I think most people compartmentalize their religious beliefs and don't think about them too deeply, so they don't get mired down in the unsavory and destructive aspects. To them, their religion is sort of a comforting backdrop to their life. Their religious community gives them a sense of belonging and, for some, an opportunity to serve and give, while the dogma that they are being fed is just background noise to which they don't pay much attention.
But, still, it is disconcerting for me to sit and listen to things that I was indoctrinated with from the very beginning of my life. Things which I was not able to compartmentalize in the way it seems most others are, and which caused me cognitive dissonance that was destructive and caused a lot of unbalance and pain in my life. For me, in a way, it's like having to relive an abusive situation every time I set foot in a church. Fortunately, due to our current circumstances, that's not something I have to subject myself to anymore, other then on rare occasions. For that, I'm truly grateful.
taking 90 minutes out of your life per week. (no one does church a couple of hours on Sunday).
Wow, did you just stealthily accuse them of making up going to church for a couple hours of week. Whether they do or not there are people that go to Church longer than 90 minutes on Sunday, I know I did. I find this response of yours very arrogant and condescending. As if you are the universal authority on how *everyone* goes to church on Sunday.
AS a Christian I can say I understand. Weighing social expectations can be tough. The question is, One, why did you marry a church goer? The Bible says that is a mistake*.
But here we are and it seems you are stuck making the wife happy for a mere $50 a week and taking 90 minutes out of your life per week. (no one does church a couple of hours on Sunday). Hey play this for what it is worth: "dear wife: I am fine to go to church Sunday. Are you fine with me doing Golf (or some other boys night out stuff"). The usual answer is "no problem". Such is marriage. If the wife says no, you may want to reconsider your relationship. If you are not willing to make this little sacrifice, you may want to reconsider your relationship*.
I don't know if I agree with this. It sounds pretty reasonable at first, but then I thought about it for a few moments.
Okay, let's just weigh the agreement here:
He
Has to (chooses to?) pay some amount of money for church
Spends some amount of time at church, probably 90 minutes - 2 hours
In return plays golf, which he also will have to pay for (note that the wife does not have to play Golf)
She
Will get to go to church
Have the house to herself on another day while her husband is golfing
Unless we work under the presumption that the wife will suffer with the husband out of the house while he's golfing, (let's be honest with ourselves) then basically the husband is the only one making sacrifices here.
If he were to ask his wife to go Golfing with him in return for him going to church, that makes more sense.
OK - I'm mid-60s. Never as I recall going to church because I wanted to. Well - - there were some times back in high school when some girl wanted me to go and I went because I was 'twiterpated' but beyond the female persuasion, never going by my choice.
I'm probably less sinful than most Christians, I just don't believe any of it. ANY OF IT!
We've moved to a smaller city and it is expected that we attend so I've been told that we're going to the local church. Wife doesn't really go to church much but thinks I'm nuts because I don't believe in Adam and Eve, the Great FLOOD or the salvation of believing. By now she of the "too bad I won't see you in Heaven" phase. I don't even like weddings or funerals.
I literally dread going. It clenches my stomach thinking I have to spend a couple of hours listening to the sermons and forking over (I don't know the going rate) 20, 30, 50 dollars a week. I will want to get in discussion with the minister (whom I've met and is very nice) or just jump up and say "this is BS!". I'll try to keep the social contacts aspect in mind but I'm really dreading it.
Arrg
Listen bro. I went to school as the only atheist kid in a school full of rabid Welsh baptists. I was kicked, punched, ridiculed, beaten, ostracised and ignored (and that was just the 'teachers') for over 5 years. They didn't break me and you shouldn't let them beat you either. If they want to treat you as an outcast simply because you don't have the same imaginary friend as them, then they are not the sort of people you should want to associate with. Screw them! Have some backbone and have the courage of your convictions.
Boy of boy am I glad I never raised my daughter in religion...she nor her teen children are involved in any church and I don't know their beliefs....none of my business...
My dad on his last days on earth at almost 96, said he never believed.....mom nagged him forever "to go to church" and he NEVER did.
I'm so content not answering to anyone....don's miss a church for a second.
People in church believe that if you go, somehow you will change eventually...that's probably why it's so hard to go?
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