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Old 01-01-2016, 09:05 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Accommodationalism

From - but not to be confused with:


accommodationist ‎(plural accommodationists)
1. someone who accommodates an opposition and compromises their own stance in attempt to discredit their opposition.



An accommodationalist (coined term in atheism) is one who implores atheists to moderate their attacks
on Christianity (as they see it) and be more accommodating towards it.

This is in the same ballpark as “agnosticism” which is a misuse of the term to mean someone who is in between organized god –belief and atheist disbelief. It encompasses “agnostic –fundamentalism" which is a misuse of both terms to denote someone who, while they do not belong to a church, believe in a god of some kind (and almost always of the monotheistic cosmic – creator kind) and thus fear and decry atheists whom they see as threatening their faith. Because these people, make no mistake about it, are "agnostic theists". Which, being interpreted, meaneth, they believe in a god, but not as approved by any of the organized churches.

I am still investigating this fascinating mental aberration, but it comes in a belief -demographic that is astoundingly common. Those who believe in a god, but pick and choose what god - claims they believe and which they don’t. Some will find they can believe in enough of the dogma –claims to belong to a church, even if they secretly disagree with some of the teachings.

Others cannot belong to a church, but believe in the Bible or JesusGod at least. They include acommodationalists within science (1), as in the ones who rewrite Genesis to make it fit evolution, or reinterpret Jesus to make him something they can 'Believe In’. Because it is the maintaining of faith – belief that is important, not what that Faith – belief is about.

It doesn’t matter too much of all the nonsense of the Gospels is rejected, Jesus as an admirable and inspired teacher will do. It is something you can have a religious Faith –belief in. But atheists who will argue that none of it is believable and Jesus may not have existed at all; well.. that is an attack on the residual sortafaith. And as we shall see, the dogma may have been watered down but the Faith -belief is just the same touchy serpent ready to strike.

It is the same with an agnostic sortagod - cosmic being who has no interest in any particular church and may not even micromanage the earth, though accommodationalist agnostic fundies will often strongly suggest mental contact of the inspirational kind (there is a reason for this..later..) with this "Sky daddy" and His having some kind of input into evolution.

Thus the accommodationalist of the 3r kind (atheist -hostile) is is really part of the whole theist apologetics coalition. They are God –believers, I argue, even if they put “God” in quotes. And their belief, as well as being faith –based, is in a god that thinks exactly as they do. The same facts, the same opinions, the same dogma or rejection of it. They tell themselves they are agreeing with God, but I will bet my ass that, when God talks to them, the same bits of their brain light up as when they talk to themselves.

This is why even those Theists who don’t believe in Religion (and often use that as an irrelevant cheap tactical point scorer when their opponent attacks Christianity) share this need to fight for faith in this sorta god of theirs, and who believe (whether they realize it or not) just like all the other apologists (other than a hypothetical one [citation needed] who does not invest faith but believes purely on the facts) that they are being inspired with the truth.

This is the key. This is what causes the religious and with some (not all of them, by any means..later...) “agnostics” to fight with all kinds of putrid and irrational arguments, abuse, sneering at science and needing to ‘prove’ God in any way they can:- fiddling science, fiddling logical argument (Kalam, n.b) and even fiddling dictionary definitions. They fear (wrongly) that accepting that they are wrong about anything they secretly feel to be inspired truth will shatter their illusions. This is why they insist that they won the debate, even when they lost. Just as Religious apologists do. This is why they cannot admit that atheists have good reasons to disbelieve and that their own beliefs are based on faith and not much else.

They know that faith isn’t good enough and so have to prop up their non –religious god –belief with all sorts of tricks, as we saw with the attempt to prove a god with cosmic origins and then, dammit, a thread claiming that God was proved in that way when it absolutely had not been proved in that or any other way.

I believe that people do want to believe that their beliefs are based on good reasons. Faith is sometimes cited as good enough and even better when not weighed down with mere mundane evidence and in its purest an most praiseworthy form in denial of validated fact. (2) But that is in itself only used as a debating tactic to win. Because it is not validating religion that is the main object of the debate, but validating themselves. Their beliefs of important to them, not because they are about God but because they are the beliefs they believe.

It is demonstrable in observation and science that belief in a god is belief in one’s own rightness. That is why, as soon as the person changes their views – say on heaven and hellthreat, then the God that always threatened hell now says blandly that there is no such place and the Bible has to be re – interpreted.

Thus you will get people with more science degrees than you could paper a wall with and who are perfectly sound on their science, but who will get very angry about unbelievers and bash them as being stupid, ignorant, closed – minded..and then trot out the most vapid arguments. That the Bible may not be true, but it contains a lot of good. That there could be a god hidden somewhere in the universe. And - as in an article that prompted me to write this - someone who equivocates the creation of life in the natural way from the molecular matter all around as in some way validating resurrection, even though he didn’t seem to believe that the Gospel resurrection account was true. (3)

This explains why it is so important to these people to push, peddle and proselytize their belief in a Sortagod. There is no heaven to be gained (though some have a sorta-afterlife) or hell to be escaped. No benefits in belief and nothing to lose other than a sorta misconceived idea that skepticism hampers speculation.

This and the venom directed towards those they fear will prick their bubble of sortagodfaith is just the same as that we get from those in the organized religions. Their views may look more reasonable than those of Creationists, but their arguments don’t seem to be any more fact –based or logical.

Now I said this wasn’t all of them and I might mention my mate Troutdude who is a god –believer of the agnostic kind. He and I disagree on the case for a sortagod or cosmic creator. But he knows that I accept there is a case for a creator, even if it’s one I don’t buy. And he knows that he is opting for a creator as either a faith –based preference or a more probable explanation. I don’t know which and I don’t mind. Because it doesn’t matter and Troud-dude knows that we we have no need to quarrel about it and he has nothing to fear from me. Nor I from him.

This fear of atheism is largely unjustified. It is their own fears of their own faith collapsing under their own doubts that is causing them disquiet, and they blame us and find ways of begging us or telling us to shut up. Thus they hope that, if we are silenced, their doubts can be silenced too.


I am pretty clear on this. Our accommodationalists may have a beef with organized religion that ought to put them in our camp. But those who beat up on New Fundamentalist or strident atheism are sheep in wolf’s clothing. Their agnosticism is sortagod –belief in an pirate -hat. These people are fifth columnists attacking atheism from the inside.

The answer? No, save the cutlass and gangplank for later . Right now it is understanding and talking that is needed. To let them see that they have nothing to fear from us. We are not attacking even religion’s rights to believe what they like, let alone the sortagod –agnostics We are fighting for the right of people to believe something other than this or that Church dogma and to have equal rights nevertheless.

They do have something to feat from their own doubts perhaps, and maybe our speaking out does help to cause those doubts to fester. But really, that’s their problem, not outs.and if they can’t do the accommodationalism that is needed – with us – then let them at least declare it and go to stand under the flag they really salute.

(1) There are Creationists within science too.

(2) I believe they have a sort of ecstatic feeling of vindicated martyrdom when they maintain their faith in spite of being shown to be absolutely wrong.

(3) . Well I can’t find that article, nor Matt Dilahunty on accommodationalist. No doubt they’ll turn up when I stop looking fior them. I did notice what a lot of rowing there is about this festering sore of the accommodationalists and their beef with "New" atheism.
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Old 01-01-2016, 10:20 AM
 
Location: minnesota
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What does TM mean? My focus is really off today so I am not sure I got the gist of what you were trying to say but I'll give it a go.


Much of what you said about the different points on the spectrum of believers would have applied to me more as stages of recovery from fundamentalist religion. I can tell you why I would have defended my religion or the concept of God even after leaving. I was indoctrinated not only with black and white thinking that kept my mind on a loop but also phobias about speaking up. There was a mental block that would not allow me to even entertain the idea that it was all crafted mind control. I know my experience was on the extreme end but I doubt it is that unique. The bible has all kinds of warnings about the evils on independent thinking even a more moderate believer would have picked up on. So it wasn't so much that I knew my view was outlook was wrong, I just defended it automatically.


I looked for greater clarity on the term accommodationism:


Many accommodationists feel that respect should be given to religious ideas because they are sincerely held by the person who holds them, appear to provide them with an ethical framework that could potentially support humanist decisions, and that aggressively criticizing these beliefs may decrease the willingness of those who hold them to engage with atheist or humanist arguments. Furthermore, many religious people feel that the failure to show such respect undermines the moral position of critics of religion.
In contrast, many other atheists maintain that "respect" should be earned and be generated as a consequence of an individual being able to clearly explain and defend their beliefs as empirically justified, rather than effective in shaping 'good' behaviour regardless of factual accuracy.


I don't really agree with respecting the belief so much as respecting the right of the person to hold it. One of my complaints about religion is that it divides people up into good and bad, right and wrong. If I confronted them, in my eyes, I am doing the same thing. Plus it starts up the back-fire effect and nothing gets solved anyway. You almost have to treat it as a real possibility because it is very real to them. It shouldn't even be about changing someone's mind but empowering them to do it if they see the need. In a generic way, like a youtube video or podcast, brutal honesty is best practice IMO. Cornering individuals and forcing them to see is kind of brutal.


I'm a friendly enough sort of chap ... I'm not a hostile person to meet. But I think it's important to realise that when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong.

It's also possible for both sides to be wrong.


Accommodationism - RationalWiki
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Old 01-01-2016, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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I used to be an "accommodationalist" and it got me where it got Neville Chamberlain ... on the wrong side of history.

Because theists have such a fear of the very basis of their identify being destroyed by doubt, they often over-extrapolate from the sometimes heated rhetoric of formal debate, to some sort of an actual atheist conspiracy to eventually bomb their churches and eat their young. They think the opposite of loving god is hating god and by extension god's people, when the actual opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. I really don't care what silly rituals theists get up to in their social clubs in real life. If I hated god or his people it would just be a negative expression of my love for them. Hatred is just disappointed love. The absence of love is no longer giving a fig.
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Old 01-01-2016, 12:04 PM
 
1,490 posts, read 1,215,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post

Much of what you said about the different points on the spectrum of believers would have applied to me more as stages of recovery from fundamentalist religion. I can tell you why I would have defended my religion or the concept of God even after leaving. I was indoctrinated not only with black and white thinking that kept my mind on a loop but also phobias about speaking up. There was a mental block that would not allow me to even entertain the idea that it was all crafted mind control. I know my experience was on the extreme end but I doubt it is that unique. The bible has all kinds of warnings about the evils on independent thinking even a more moderate believer would have picked up on. So it wasn't so much that I knew my view was outlook was wrong, I just defended it automatically.
Thanks for sharing your experience and your candor. Question for you if you don't mind answering...

I have a bit of a working theory (not overly original I'm afraid) that the black and white thinking is a result of the perceived need to stave off annihilation. Psychology would suggest it is characteristic of an unstable sense of self. And so the reason they perceive annihilation threat is because subconsciously they actually see they are wrong but would need to tear down their entire self to rectify this situation. And as irrational as it may sound, I think it explains the inappropriate level of response we observe from some theists when we challenge their beliefs. Responses which suggest being called stupid or ignorant or being attacked somehow, when it is not at all rational to see it to that extreme.

So with that preface....would you say that you or others you knew from the same church, had this sort of reaction when (if ever) challenged because somewhere in the back of your mind you knew your reasons for belief weren't justified? Or would you say your reactiono to being challenged were generally pretty rational even if the beliefs being defended were not?
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Old 01-01-2016, 12:10 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,731,784 times
Reputation: 5930
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
What does TM mean? My focus is really off today so I am not sure I got the gist of what you were trying to say but I'll give it a go.


Much of what you said about the different points on the spectrum of believers would have applied to me more as stages of recovery from fundamentalist religion. I can tell you why I would have defended my religion or the concept of God even after leaving. I was indoctrinated not only with black and white thinking that kept my mind on a loop but also phobias about speaking up. There was a mental block that would not allow me to even entertain the idea that it was all crafted mind control. I know my experience was on the extreme end but I doubt it is that unique. The bible has all kinds of warnings about the evils on independent thinking even a more moderate believer would have picked up on. So it wasn't so much that I knew my view was outlook was wrong, I just defended it automatically.


I looked for greater clarity on the term accommodationism:


Many accommodationists feel that respect should be given to religious ideas because they are sincerely held by the person who holds them, appear to provide them with an ethical framework that could potentially support humanist decisions, and that aggressively criticizing these beliefs may decrease the willingness of those who hold them to engage with atheist or humanist arguments. Furthermore, many religious people feel that the failure to show such respect undermines the moral position of critics of religion.
In contrast, many other atheists maintain that "respect" should be earned and be generated as a consequence of an individual being able to clearly explain and defend their beliefs as empirically justified, rather than effective in shaping 'good' behaviour regardless of factual accuracy.


I don't really agree with respecting the belief so much as respecting the right of the person to hold it. One of my complaints about religion is that it divides people up into good and bad, right and wrong. If I confronted them, in my eyes, I am doing the same thing. Plus it starts up the back-fire effect and nothing gets solved anyway. You almost have to treat it as a real possibility because it is very real to them. It shouldn't even be about changing someone's mind but empowering them to do it if they see the need. In a generic way, like a youtube video or podcast, brutal honesty is best practice IMO. Cornering individuals and forcing them to see is kind of brutal.


I'm a friendly enough sort of chap ... I'm not a hostile person to meet. But I think it's important to realise that when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong.

It's also possible for both sides to be wrong.


Accommodationism - RationalWiki
Yes. Nice post. While the OP looks like a thesis, it is a more a topic of discussion. I think there is Something in what I am arguing ("crap", did I hear someone say?) and I'm hoping for critical feedback such as yours.

TM was just a wink from me (TM) after some new coined term in quotes (Trade mark' - "I invented it - need permission to use it" idea) because accommodation, in the def. given, is broader. compromising one's own position to keep things sweet. But the New Agnostics in the atheist ranks decrying the outspoken and calling for a more conciliary approach are a differently legged snake.

They (critics of "New" atheism) were at first a worrying caution and quite effective in making atheism wonder whether it was doing more harm than good in being outspoken. And yet I know that sitting on our hands and letting pushy theism have its own way won't do us any good. True, Atheists didn't stop creationism dead at Dover, nor was it Dawkins but Bill Nye pulled the rug from under en Ham before he'd got halfway through his presentation. But no, I can't believe being silent would do us any good. Now I begin to think that, while they have an atheist passport, they hang the theist flag in the window.

There is a case for being polite. Yes and you won't find me on a Zombie Jesus march. Nor for that matter at a U/U church, especially since seeing a speech by one of the ministers putting on as good a display of agnostic fundamentalism as ever I saw (1).

However, enough about me, let's talk about you. (2) The fact is that compromise is not always right. Facts are more likely to be. The classic analogy (or ought to be) is a disagreement about whether the sun rises in the east or the west. The solution is not to say it rises in between and expect both sides to be happy with that. The facts as revealed by the best evidence is that it rises in ... whichever bllooddy part of the horizon it does. I haven't seen it for months.

Yes the argument you posted is really done and dusted. We can respect the person and their right to their beliefs and I advocate politeness and all the rest of that bullcrap, and there is a lot of truth in the credit one can earn by a polite answer to a ranting bigot. That would not of course satisfy the accommodationalists. because they don't want us to be polite, gently correcting or responding to red faced damning to hell with a dissertation on the lack of a hell in OT text. They want us to shut up and go away. And that is not ever going to happen.

I take all the points on board about the way we come across - many atheists thought that we lost more than we gained in the Prayer in Cafe dispute. I would probably have turned down a coffee date with Madalyn O' hair, but the A/A movement she started outweighs that a sight more than the (hypothetical) contributions to charity justifies the private Learjets of Televangelists.

You are quite right about the right of people to hold beliefs. But as I said, right in the year I joined CD, 'Just telling' does not exempt from crit. If you go public with your views, you can expect to be called on them. I advocate a polite and sound response (anything less and a mod will be after you with a cattle -prod) but the Other Sangreal of the theists is the right to preach without being called on it. That, too, is not, ever, going to happen, excerpt in their own churches, of course. If they don't go public.

Yeah..I do often try to do the Lt. Peep thing (3) But it's not right. It's cowardice. I hate to hurt people, even if it would do them good (I always think of Frodo offering Gollum Elvenbread ). But that is us pandering to religious privilege. Jesus in a burger bar, we goddless pondslime don't get much consideration of that kind. We are sent to hell or told we are blind and hard -hearted. Simply for going with the evidence

I won't explore the road about the techniques of the workplace bully, but the fact is that there is an anecdote..hang on..

Nope.. can't find it...but it was an anecdote in a couple of versions about a scientist who admitted that he'd got it all wrong or had been convinced that he was wrong and was applauded. There is no shame or hardship in being wrong. Nobody knows everything. Apart from me - Me and my mate from Peru know everything. The rest of you should be glad to learn and be glad to be corrected.

So why the weeping and gnashing of gnashers when shown to be wrong? Personal pride, perhaps? Needs a different mindset. Not having to to fight for our own fragile pride is a lot less easier on the stress -circuits.



(1) New atheists closed minded...reject any possibility of a god..I'm not one for Purges or sacking for doctrinal reasons, But I expected better from U/U

(2) the cool smiley should really go at the end but I sorta liked it where it was.

(3) See Dennis. Capt Blast and the Lost satellite.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-01-2016 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 01-01-2016, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
20,005 posts, read 13,486,477 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinEden99 View Post
Thanks for sharing your experience and your candor. Question for you if you don't mind answering...

I have a bit of a working theory (not overly original I'm afraid) that the black and white thinking is a result of the perceived need to stave off annihilation. Psychology would suggest it is characteristic of an unstable sense of self. And so the reason they perceive annihilation threat is because subconsciously they actually see they are wrong but would need to tear down their entire self to rectify this situation. And as irrational as it may sound, I think it explains the inappropriate level of response we observe from some theists when we challenge their beliefs. Responses which suggest being called stupid or ignorant or being attacked somehow, when it is not at all rational to see it to that extreme.

So with that preface....would you say that you or others you knew from the same church, had this sort of reaction when (if ever) challenged because somewhere in the back of your mind you knew your reasons for belief weren't justified? Or would you say your reactiono to being challenged were generally pretty rational even if the beliefs being defended were not?
I know you didn't address this to me but I can speak to it also. I experienced the reaction as anxiety but I couldn't have told you its source. I just experienced it as feeling threatened, uneasy and/or attacked. The only thing I could latch onto without actually mindfully exploring my feelings and the reason for them, was that the person making these statements or critiques or disagreements was being indecorous at the least, or more often rude and arrogant and hostile. And I had this reaction even when not accosted by actual unbelievers, but simply by believers who were of a more liberal persuasion. I could not get my mind around the idea that you could be sanguine about, or hold less than rigidly, to Biblical inerrancy and other axiomatic dogmas. In fact to me all dogma was axiomatic. To question it is to allow that you could be at least partially wrong about some or all of it, and even the prospect of reinventing my inner landscape to allow me to be some other sort of Christian was too much to contemplate -- never mind not being a Christian or not being a believer at all. THOSE endpoints where in the category of "unthinkable".

It took traumatic life events to force a complete re-evaluation -- life events that were more of an existential threat to me at the time than questioning my dogma of origin.
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Old 01-01-2016, 12:25 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,731,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
..some sort of an actual atheist conspiracy to eventually bomb their churches and eat their young. .
Shhhhh!!!Shhh!!
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Old 01-01-2016, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma USA
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OP, any and all of the various permutations listed in your first post, such as 'agnostic theists' could all call themselves Unitarians.

I'm one. Skeptical of all, willing to see the good in all.

There are hardcore Atheist Unitarians, all the gamut to Christian Unitarians. But most of us fall somewhere in between, into the 'skeptical of all religions, but believing there is probably some sort of higher and ineffable Intelligence -- probably' category.

Then on the other hand, people who have an innate sense that there is, and use as there working hypothesis that there is indeed some sort of higher Intelligence -- we can call ourselves Deists. Once again there are all flavors of Deism.

People anywhere on the spectrum from Atheism to 'soft' Agnosticism might do well to research the histories of Unitarianism and Deism.

We already have some comfy places to land -- and a brilliant heritage left to us by some of the western world's greatest mind.
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Old 01-01-2016, 12:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I know you didn't address this to me but I can speak to it also. I experienced the reaction as anxiety but I couldn't have told you its source. I just experienced it as feeling threatened, uneasy and/or attacked. The only thing I could latch onto without actually mindfully exploring my feelings and the reason for them, was that the person making these statements or critiques or disagreements was being indecorous at the least, or more often rude and arrogant and hostile. And I had this reaction even when not accosted by actual unbelievers, but simply by believers who were of a more liberal persuasion. I could not get my mind around the idea that you could be sanguine about, or hold less than rigidly, to Biblical inerrancy and other axiomatic dogmas. In fact to me all dogma was axiomatic. To question it is to allow that you could be at least partially wrong about some or all of it, and even the prospect of reinventing my inner landscape to allow me to be some other sort of Christian was too much to contemplate -- never mind not being a Christian or not being a believer at all. THOSE endpoints where in the category of "unthinkable".

It took traumatic life events to force a complete re-evaluation -- life events that were more of an existential threat to me at the time than questioning my dogma of origin.
Thanks for responding as I'm appreciative of your own experiences as well.

For me, I grew up around religious people....some of which were fundamentalists I'm sure....but it wasn't a prominent part of my life.

And to point out I don't necessarily think the black and white thinking and inappropriate response level is exclusively for the religious. Even cliche minor examples such as your spouse telling you that you're lost and refusing to look at a map and responding with anger I think demonstrate the same behavior response....albeit typically more muted. Or at least that's how I try to relate to it.
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Old 01-01-2016, 12:44 PM
 
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And apologies to Arq for the minor threadjack . I have some thoughts as well which I plan to write up when I can get behind the computer for a bit to make a coherent response.
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