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Honestly, that's the biggest issue I've faced. When you tell someone you don't believe in any sort of religion, they take it personally as if you suggested they were a fool for believing in something. Some people say "oh ok" and let it go, but others take it personal.
I think they take it personal because it's implicit that you have considered the same existential questions as the believer and have come to different conclusions ... which they take as an implicit critique of their reasoning process, even though not intended as such. Also they have often been conditioned to assume that atheism is a knowledge position (and therefore arrogant), or is a protest statement because you are disappointed, angry, and/or hateful of believers or the church or god himself ... or any number of other nonsense claims to which they can take umbrage or be uncomfortable with.
But the main problem, I suspect, is that you are violating a taboo and thinking the unthinkable and it scares and angers them. It is an existential threat, however symbolic. It is like telling someone they didn't win the lottery after all -- after they have planned out how they are going to spend their winnings.
1st time shame on them. Second time shame on you. You should have known by your late teens. Don't blame religion for stupid parents raising stupid people.
This is an intolerant attitude, regardless of whether it is a statement targeting a specific individual or a blanket one intended for all of us who didn't go from belief to atheism in our teens.
My parents are not stupid, I am not stupid, and I didn't become an atheist in my teens.
I often find your posts difficult to follow. If I've misunderstood your post, please clarify.
Excellent thread and wise posts, everyone. As a lifetimer, I stayed out, but I'd like to say that if you remain a believing agnostic, but non - religious, you are one with us. You are atheist about every god (and creed) that is a bother to us and the possibility of 'something more' and those inexplicable experiences is not denied by us Deniers. We just consider that there could be mundane-mechanical explanations we don't know about and we urge on the research.
If you don't and prefer to believe in a sorta cosmic mind behind all this, we don't mind at all (even if we disagree) and we propose only that you see the damage organized religion does, the need to push it out of public life and join us in doing your bit to gain this end...worldwide.
Thanks, Arq. This is a very inclusive attitude towards those moving away from belief who haven't reached an agnostic atheist position. It also includes those think there's "something" out there that doesn't warrant the trappings of religion. The transition can definitely be murky.
Your description reminds me of a conversation about the spectrum of atheism and the transition from belief to non belief.
...When I read this post at work today on my phone during a break, I thought of tolerance made a mental note to respond when home on my computer. That was before I read the post I objected to as being intolerant.
There are many sortagod -agnostics and I would love to have them concentrate on the need to push back organized religion and agree to differ on the cosmic mind god - concept. It is unfortunate that some get heavy about this and try to force acceptance of this cosmic mind, using the 'who made everything, then?' argument, pretty much, and get involved in the sort of mangling and reversing of logic which is endemic to theist debate. "God's logic" it is called, sometimes. Taking "God" as a given, reversing the burden of proof and frequently some form of ID.
I wonder why it is so important that we be convinced to believe in this entity and why various kinds of abuse, contempt and insult are employed to shame or bully us into acceptance or just bash for not doing so. It is perhaps significant that many such ind a way of dragging in religion by way of the need for churches or the Bible, and that they end up doing the work of organized religion by denouncing us as strident, pushy and intolerant, or "Fundamentalist", as they gleefully dub us.
I would love them on our side, but the fact is that they are Religious and act like it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-24-2016 at 11:04 PM..
I wish I had an answer. Fear trumps love. I'm sure you're aware of this being Holy Week and Easter being on Sunday. It's a strange week for me thinking about my previous involvement celebrating the holidays of the week.
I can't understand how those who who celebrate the joy of Easter can walk around acting normal when there are so many wars in the world. That response doesn't fit when looking at what they say Jesus taught. When I was still trying to hang onto my religion, I would think of this and wonder why I wasn't screaming about the hypocrisy and horrors of the world. That's one detail from the emotionally flat part of my journey when deciding to walk away.
I wish I had an answer. Fear trumps love. I'm sure you're aware of this being Holy Week and Easter being on Sunday. It's a strange week for me thinking about my previous involvement celebrating the holidays of the week.
I can't understand how those who who celebrate the joy of Easter can walk around acting normal when there are so many wars in the world. That response doesn't fit when looking at what they say Jesus taught. When I was still trying to hang onto my religion, I would think of this and wonder why I wasn't screaming about the hypocrisy and horrors of the world. That's one detail from the emotionally flat part of my journey when deciding to walk away.
The way is to keep explaining, reasoning and pointing out that, if you are going to claim a logical basis for what you think, you have to use logic as we know it.
I once saw a fireman explain that you have to be a bit detached..it can look callous...or you can't do your job. Some time ago I put it like this: "If you feel the need to go dig wells in Namibia, fine. If not, then do what you can to make life a bit better for everyone."
I'll give one example of this on the train from London. A muslim woman got on with her pram and kid and asked about whether it was the right train and did she have to change. I sympathized as I always feel nervous until they actually announce we are on the way to Newport, Cardiff central and Swansea. I helped her get settled in the four-seat bit and shifted to the next seat. ten minutes later, I was roused from reading about the Belgium bombings in the Times ad popped my head over.
"Is there a problem?"
"She has only a Standard ticket. I'll help you move the pram.."
"Oh we can't have her moved. I can handle this." So the machine was produced, a top -up and ticket.
As I explained to the woman (Sofia) later, shifting her would have spoiled her day and knowing that would have spoiled mine. If I hadn't done this, I would have wished I had for a week. I never forget the woman who paid for my grocery (just 3 quid) when I found I'd forgotten my change.
It is true perhaps that I should have travelled pig class myself and given the money to the poor, but the poor you have with you always, folks. Transponder you get only for a few decades more, with luck.
I think they take it personal because it's implicit that you have considered the same existential questions as the believer and have come to different conclusions ... which they take as an implicit critique of their reasoning process, even though not intended as such. Also they have often been conditioned to assume that atheism is a knowledge position (and therefore arrogant), or is a protest statement because you are disappointed, angry, and/or hateful of believers or the church or god himself ... or any number of other nonsense claims to which they can take umbrage or be uncomfortable with.
But the main problem, I suspect, is that you are violating a taboo and thinking the unthinkable and it scares and angers them. It is an existential threat, however symbolic. It is like telling someone they didn't win the lottery after all -- after they have planned out how they are going to spend their winnings.
Yeah, I am far scarier to my long term friends and relations who still profess to believe than someone raised outside the faith. I know the route from where they are to where I am and at every fork in the road along the way it is pretty obvious which is the rational choice. You are correct about the taboo; some of my older relatives are clearly uncomfortable with some questions even being asked.
It's extremely difficult for people to imagine not being.
If you really think about it, the fear of being dead is based on the idea that you're going to somehow be aware of it and since it's an unknown, it can be scary.
Once you fully understand that there will be no awareness, there is nothing to fear.
As far as any part of life being wasted, every single bit of it was a learning experience. I wouldn't know, now, what I know if all of it hadn't happened.
I just leave god and religion out of the mix and see what falls out.
people don't understand that you really don't go way. I mean you never really "come into being". The universe just moves through a series of state changes and we are part of that. It's really just "energy" and we have no idea what "pure energy" is. Even the parts that make us up are not "things", they are events.
At our level, We are a subroutine running in a larger pangram. Obviously its more complicated than that, but that's the general idea. But the brain fills in gaps to lessen anxiety. real or not, its just a chemical reaction, the brain will lessen the perceived threat. so "after life" works there. I run into trouble with this belief when adults start telling children they are sinners if they don't believe that silliness.
Bottom line is though, we don't really die. I will not be walking around with my dead dad either. Blame your parents or self if you can't understand or handle it. I don't believe in god or religion so I am forced to use only what we have. It aint religions fault we act stupidly. Of course, the brain will turn this simple notion into 'not mine, no way, my parents were awesome and I am smarter because my logic is undeniable". Most brains do it.
This is an intolerant attitude, regardless of whether it is a statement targeting a specific individual or a blanket one intended for all of us who didn't go from belief to atheism in our teens.
My parents are not stupid, I am not stupid, and I didn't become an atheist in my teens.
I often find your posts difficult to follow. If I've misunderstood your post, please clarify.
I intended to put people on the defensive just like we do when we insult, degrade, and belittle theists. It was not rligion's fault you believe or don't believe. It starts with you and your family.
I wish I had an answer. Fear trumps love. I'm sure you're aware of this being Holy Week and Easter being on Sunday. It's a strange week for me thinking about my previous involvement celebrating the holidays of the week.
I can't understand how those who who celebrate the joy of Easter can walk around acting normal when there are so many wars in the world. That response doesn't fit when looking at what they say Jesus taught. When I was still trying to hang onto my religion, I would think of this and wonder why I wasn't screaming about the hypocrisy and horrors of the world. That's one detail from the emotionally flat part of my journey when deciding to walk away.
The normals don't. The thiest I know are regular people so who are you talking about? The mentals? and what makes our group better?
why would some people betray our species? the answer is easy.
But you are right, because of how the brain works, fear trumps love. Fear of religion is an excellent example. The religion beast is not real. Any basic Logical analysis expose anti religious hate as wrong and apologetic atheism as more logical and normal. Again, pushing back against people trying to force a belief down our throat is different than siding with freaks because "that other rule came from a religion".
to us in the middle, a good rule is a good rule. I leave out the word god and they don't. so what. Some people can't understand.
at least arq is toning down the emotional based atheist belief with his new name. Maybe he will even believe it someday. maybe he will even share what happened to him in his youth; In the interest of transparency and honesty that is.
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