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For those of you who may not know, Matt Dillahunty was once a baptist minister who quit because he realized that there was really no evidence for any of Christianity's claims.
After watching some show last night on some documentary channel about the tomb of Jesus (which is not verified, and proves nothing), I am reminded of how fallacious the religious thinking is to put any and every explanation for everything in life into a supernatural perspective.
Like many of us on the atheist and agnostic board, I love a good SCI FI show and enjoy sometimes reading a good work of fiction. But in reality, I want proof and reason for what I believe. Most of my library is non-fiction. If I am told that Jesus came back from the dead, I want to know why and how and I want some proof. If I am told that somehow his return from the underworld merit's some sacrifice to some god I have never seen nor seen any evidence of ever, then I say that the story is becoming even more far fetched. And if I am told he is coming back any minute now, to judge and save the world, I point out that some are awaiting John Frum's return with no avail
Which brings about why I express my doubts. 1 If Jesus did in fact come back from the dead, then EVERYONE around at the time would have known about it. but instead, only a select few knew about it, and accounts of it were never recorded until 35 years later
2 Some say that Jesus' appearance to Paul (Saul) was proof. All that was, from a neuropsych perspective, was a hallucination secondary to a focal temporal seizure. I have seen patients with it, trust me, there is no visit from god, just the human brain firing randomly and creating an alternate reality. Which is ancient times, was seen not as a disease but as a gateway to another world.
3 The lost tomb, which supposedly rests under the Church of the Sepulcher, or maybe across the way under a market, or maybe in a touristy garden area, has been lost. I would doubt that such a momentous place would be lost. Some say that the Romans moved quickly to build a temple over it, to negate it, but I would think that Romans would have been more interested in something mystical, had it happened, and I would think that Jews/Christians would have marked it and know to this day where it is. But it seems to be lost.
4 Why are there no contemporary accounts of the crucifixion? Not to say that some would be Messiah was not executed, shoot, Rome executed people all the time. But we have no writings until at least 35 years later, and what we have is compounded by embellishments (Barrabas, Joseph purchasing the Body etc)
Not to mention that the timeline given in the Bible accounts could not have happened. Roman Crucifixion on a cross was a slow torturous death, lingering slowly for a day or more, not a couple of hours.
SO what happened to the body? was it taken down and hastily buried (perhaps still alive, but unconscious) or was it left up to rot like most were?
Jesus was not, while alive, a significant teacher. He was a small time, travelling Minister, some would say likened to a small cult leader of today, who taught radical and unaccepted views, (like David Koresh, or Marshall Applewhite). Some accounts mentions that he had 12 followers, he may have ONLY had 12 followers. BUT he did travel and meet a number of people, different people, who would have 5 or 10 years later say "Oh did you hear, remember that Jesus guy? He came back from the dead!?"
Such is how superstition and myth travel.
Some would say that there were eyewitness accounts to his 12 followers, but we have no contemporary accounts save the writings of Paul, which are about as valid as the teachings of that homeless guy who hangs out in front of the Try N Save and preaches religion to an imaginary audience, more a testament to our failed mental health system in this state than religious doctrine.
So what evidence do we have that Jesus same back from the dead, and will be back any minute now? Well, really, none. Of course the same could be said about Mirtha, Horus, John Frum, who knows who else......(and who cares else....) ?
Fact is, I see no evidence for the basis of this religion.
And now the biggie: I see no advantage of it. From a mental health perspective, I see the potential for more harm than good. I am not saying that belief and practice leads to mental illness in all cases, but I have experienced and observed where it HAS and DOES lead to mental illness, or at the least, complicates and exacerbates underlying conditions, such as anxiety, depression and even personality disorders. For the inpatients who claim to talk to Jesus, see angels and receive divine revelation, I point to existing chemical imbalances as evidenced by lab work and EEGs, malformations of the brain seen on the MRI scans and the clearing or lessening of symptoms with appropriate medications.
If such a thing as a religious social order existed whereby followers could meet, socialize, have an hour together and walk away somehow happier , inspired, peaceful, somehow have their lives improved by it, then such a thing would be beneficial. However, I have not personally experienced such activity, or something similar, nor do I have any great hope that such a thing would in fact exist, as ultimately, it comes down to an illusion...a faith based on misinformation, myth, and in the end, removes personal responsibility from the individual, thus failing to empower a person to reach their full self actualized human potential.
There are so many more plausible possibilities than magic, so I have no reason to believe. But that will have to wait for another day. As will your video.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
And now the biggie: I see no advantage of it.
There are advantages, such as sense of community, comfort in the belief a dead person is in heaven, usw. But most of the advantages can also be found in other communities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat
From a mental health perspective, I see the potential for more harm than good.
Yes, the evils in religion can be catastrophic, not just to people, but to the environment. Zb, a religion that believes the world will end within 20 years is not one to promote making the world a good place to live for your grand children.
Before I went atheist I had already developed a general loathing of the Easter holiday. First, from my perspective it was no holiday at all, we didn't get a day off from school, we didn't get any presents, we didn't make a family drive around the city to see the Easter lights and decorations at people's homes.
What we did get was the Good Friday ordeal. Good Friday would be a regular school day with the exception of the Stations of the Cross claptrap. The idea was that since Jesus hung on the cross for three hours, we devoted Catholics should not mind spending three hours in church. This varied from year to year due to practical problems. At first they just had the 7th and 8th grade classes shuffle over to the church and spend three tedium filled hours being silent while the priest and two altar boys went around from tableau to tableau, each one representing one of the stations. (The stations were incidents of Jesus suffering...the agony in the garden, the betrayal by Judas, the crowning with thorns, the whipping ..etc ..but it was all said in Latin, so there wasn't even an entertaining story to break the monotony.)
However, the three hours was a bit much in the Miami heat and there would be some kids who fainted and had to be hauled away, some who got sick and threw up in the pews, and a constant shuffle of kids wanting to use the bathroom which was disruptive. So they changed it to where the 3rd and 4th grade would spend the first hour there, then be replaced by the 5th and 6th grades for the second hour, and then the 7th and 8th graders would be brought in for the final hour.
I had made the mistake of becoming an altar boy, so from fifth grade on I would be stuck there for the full three hours, roaming from station to station with the priest, hauling this big mother crucifix on a metal pole around with me. It was twice as hot having to wear the damn cassock and surplus over my school clothes. I was bored witless and soaking in sweat, I couldn't wait for the three hours to finally pass so I could get out of that sauna suit and sit down.
As a kid, not believing a word of it, I loved Christmas (who wouldn't) but Easter was miserable and boring, despite chocolate egg and hot cross buns.
As to the factuality, I'd say that there would have been no need to invent three different resurrection tales if there had originally been one (Mark did not have one - it didn't get "Lost"). And Paul's list of the appearances' to apostles refuted the Resurrection stories and pretty much shows that these were appearances in the head; belief in a spiritual resurrection, not a solid body one.
Sure, the Pharisaical belief was in a solid body resurrection at the Last Days, but the Lats days hadn't happened. Jesus messiah (Christ) had incarnated as a spirit and departed Jesus' body as a spirit.
So where is the body? Well, whether it remained in Arimathea's tomb, or was taken back to Galilee, it wasn't in the city as all tombs were being cleared from the Bezetha suburb and re-interred on the mount of Olives. No new tomb would be build in the city but within easy reach of Bethany and Gethsemane. Neither of the two tombs shown to pious tourists as Jesus' tomb can really be it.
I'll won't go over the absurdities and interesting indications of another story, covered up, nor even relish again the tale of the Talpiot Tomb, one that makes me smile every time I think of it, but I will mention - when they thought that actual tomb of Jesus had been discovered still with his bones and sarcophagus in, how they dropped the Holy Sepulchre and garden tombs as the true ones, like live grenades.
As a kid, not believing a word of it, I loved Christmas (who wouldn't) but Easter was miserable and boring, despite chocolate egg and hot cross buns.
As to the factuality, I'd say that there would have been no need to invent three different resurrection tales if there had originally been one (Mark did not have one - it didn't get "Lost"). And Paul's list of the appearances' to apostles refuted the Resurrection stories and pretty much shows that these were appearances in the head; belief in a spiritual resurrection, not a solid body one.
Sure, the Pharisaical belief was in a solid body resurrection at the Last Days, but the Lats days hadn't happened. Jesus messiah (Christ) had incarnated as a spirit and departed Jesus' body as a spirit.
So where is the body? Well, whether it remained in Arimathea's tomb, or was taken back to Galilee, it wasn't in the city as all tombs were being cleared from the Bezetha suburb and re-interred on the mount of Olives. No new tomb would be build in the city but within easy reach of Bethany and Gethsemane. Neither of the two tombs shown to pious tourists as Jesus' tomb can really be it.
I'll won't go over the absurdities and interesting indications of another story, covered up, nor even relish again the tale of the Talpiot Tomb, one that makes me smile every time I think of it, but I will mention - when they thought that actual tomb of Jesus had been discovered still with his bones and sarcophagus in, how they dropped the Holy Sepulchre and garden tombs as the true ones, like live grenades.
lmao such circling.
I said, do we know of anybody in the last 100 years that rose? As taught I mean, in the bible?
answer: Nope.
Then it didn't happen that way in the bible either.
I think I was in middle school when I asked that. Well, I am guessing, I remember saying it as far back as I can remember. Like 9:30 this morning.
I said, do we know of anybody in the last 100 years that rose? As taught I mean, in the bible?
answer: Nope.
Then it didn't happen that way in the bible either.
I think I was in middle school when I asked that. Well, I am guessing, I remember saying it as far back as I can remember. Like 9:30 this morning.
Correct
So much of the resurrection myth (A spiritual, not bodily resurrection) was started by Paul, who unfortunately was not of sound mind and body. We can see in his writings how he suffered from neuro-psych disease, which I DO understand and we KNOW can cause hallucinations of all sorts.
And no there has been NO bodily resurrection of someone who has been dead for 3 days.
BUT please allow me to draw an illustration of how quickly mythology can evolve when people are desperate enough.
Look up John Frum.
John Frum was a fictional figure, or a spirit (hallucination) inspired figure, or based on a real American named John Frum (who has never been located) BUT the Cargo cults of Melanesia have gone to great lengths not only to anticipate John Frum's return, but to hasten it by building airstrips and primitive structures which resemble control towers in hopes that John Frum will return more quickly. But they maintain that John Frum WILL return.
Even though he probably does not exist, and certainly has no powers of a god or gods. Cargo Cults - Anthropology - Oxford Bibliographies
Sounds similar to early Christian followers, poor, desperate, limited in means and having a lifestyle centered strongly in superstition, awaiting the triumphant return of a dead Messiah to conquer the world(on their behalf) or at least bestow riches and power to them.
Good Friday would be a regular school day with the exception of the Stations of the Cross claptrap.... etc etc
You could be my echo. Wow. I'm guessing Catholic school was the same across the country. Between the school-specific observance along with having to go to Saturday 3-hour Vigil thing...
I recall how my mother, who is devout, even she would opt to NOT do the Saturday 3-hour marathon since it was just "too damn long." I mean, what kind of Catholic are you then? Shouldn't you want to toil for hours like Jesus did?
As for resurrection, I just chalk it up to an earlier era version of alternative facts. Maybe the Minister Jesus said he'd revive, made a big show of it, maybe people lost interest in his antics. When he did eventually die, maybe only a few people actually cared enough to investigate whereas the general public had already moved on from the idea.
Then word gets out "Hey, he actually did revive!"
"Wow, cool! Where is he?"
"Oh, he went back to heaven along with my girlfriend from Canada"
You could be my echo. Wow. I'm guessing Catholic school was the same across the country. Between the school-specific observance along with having to go to Saturday 3-hour Vigil thing...
I recall how my mother, who is devout, even she would opt to NOT do the Saturday 3-hour marathon since it was just "too damn long." I mean, what kind of Catholic are you then? Shouldn't you want to toil for hours like Jesus did?
...
Your parish had the Stations vigil on Saturday rather than on Good Friday?
I contemplate and celebrate Good Friday every year.
In 1998 April 10th was good Friday. My daughter was born that day 2 months premature, kind of small at 4lbs 3oz but strong and healthy. She still is strong and healthy but quite a bit bigger.
For those of you who may not know, Matt Dillahunty was once a baptist minister who quit because he realized that there was really no evidence for any of Christianity's claims.
After watching some show last night on some documentary channel about the tomb of Jesus (which is not verified, and proves nothing), I am reminded of how fallacious the religious thinking is to put any and every explanation for everything in life into a supernatural perspective.
Christians are quick to point out the many references in the gospels about the appearance of Jesus after his alleged death, but if you examine them closely, you'll find that many are repetitions: the gospel writers recounting the same events.
More importantly though, you'll note that Jesus never appears before anyone who could cause him harm. He never appears before Pilate, or the Pharisees, or the Sadducees, or anyone else of any importance or significance. He only appears before his supporters.
There's probably more truth to the claim that Jesus fled Jerusalem for India via Damascus, than he came back to life.
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mental health system in this state than religious doctrine. 
