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Shirina, surely you know better than to think that anything but savage, barbaric concepts of God could ever come from ignorant, primitive, savage, and barbaric people.
Yes, that is true ... which is why I STILL cannot understand why you feel compelled to insert Christian concepts and Christian folklore into your otherwise workable belief system.
Jesus Christ was just as savage, primitive, and barbaric as all the rest of them. He may have uttered a few pearls of wisdom -- assuming Jesus existed or, even if he did, that he said ANY of the things found in the Bible considering all of that was written decades after Jesus's supposed crucifixion.
But, Jesus, just like all of the savage and primitive gods, still demands love and worship as well as blind, unquestioning obedience. And, Jesus is, perhaps, the most savage of all considering he is the author of the Hell-threat; one must worship Yahweh through Jesus, beg him for forgiveness since he, like all savage gods, judges every move you make, or else be given a key to a room at the Forever Burn Hotel.
There is nothing in all of religion or, for that matter, all of human atrocity, that compares to being tortured forever. And why? For being evil? For committing horrible acts of inhumanity? No, of course not. Again, like all primitive and egomaniac gods, you burn forever because you failed to do 80+ years of ass-kissing and ego-stroking. YOU didn't worship me; YOU didn't beg from me the forgiveness I require you to have, so buh-bye! (And the trap door opens and down you go, perhaps to the sound of someone playing that "falling" note with a trombone.)
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The flawed concepts of God are entirely from the flawed and fallible human minds that conceived them. They have nothing to do with the actual God that exists.
Well, you know, I'm sure, that I think your concept of god is flawed, as well, because you're inserting elements of Christianity into it ... when there's no real reason that any gods at all exist, much less one with a name, a personality, one who walked the earth in the flesh, and the central figure for a billion believers, most of whom believe in the savage, primitive god of the Bible. It's the same book from which you're pulling Christ from -- without it, you wouldn't have any idea who Jesus was.
I still don't know why you feel the need to include Christianity in your otherwise elegant beliefs -- the idea of agape love is certainly more appealing than the wild-eyed lunacy of "love without respect" which is precisely how Christians portray their deities. (And yep, I said deities - plural - on purpose.)
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
But we have within a standard by which you have and everyone else can judge what actually is and is not from God.
Well... I don't believe we get *anything* from God -- and certainly not any god found in any holy books, including Jesus in the Bible. And without the Bible, Jesus doesn't exist because there really aren't any secular contemporary accounts of miracle-working by anyone named Jesus -- or anyone by any other name for that matter.
As a gregarious species, we've simply evolved to a point where we intuitively understand what we have to do in order to live together in a coherent society. Wild animals have done this -- and often do it far better than we do, largely *because* they don't have gods to fight over and religious dogma to be absolutely correct about. I doubt any god imprinted morality on the hearts of lions, elephants, wolves, and any other societal animal -- and studies have shown that they do have a moral system. Hell, just scold a dog and you can tell he knows he's guilty.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
In my view, it is the Comforter sent in Christ's name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts" under the New Covenant instituted by Christ.
Well, you certainly know my views about that.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
In your view, it is your conscience that produced your guilt over that poor bird.
Or, more specifically, it was empathy. Something we evolved into possessing so that society and civilization can even exist.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
In my past, hunting was a staple of our diet. But one day, I shot a rabbit from a long distance with a 22 rifle just to show off. It keeled over, but when we dressed it for dinner, there was no bullet hole. I had simply scared that poor little rabbit to death. I never went hunting again. My experience in deep meditation was still years away in my future, but I had the conscience nonetheless.
In the case of the bird, I'm quite certain that if I was shooting it to stay alive, killing it would not have had as profound an impact on me. But because it was a needless, senseless killing -- and in truth I really didn't think I would hit it anyway -- it struck me a lot harder than normal.
Of course we, who live in the era of grocery stores and restaurants on every other corner, going out and actually hunting down our dinner is something most of us will never do. Unfortunately, however, there are still enough people out there who hunt purely for sport and bragging rights that it does make me wonder how, if these emotions come from God, why they can happily call their expedition a success with a lion draped across the hood of their car -- rather than bawling their eyes out over what they have done, and never doing it again.
Of course we, who live in the era of grocery stores and restaurants on every other corner, going out and actually hunting down our dinner is something most of us will never do. Unfortunately, however, there are still enough people out there who hunt purely for sport and bragging rights that it does make me wonder how, if these emotions come from God, why they can happily call their expedition a success with a lion draped across the hood of their car -- rather than bawling their eyes out over what they have done, and never doing it again.
A decent person *would* cry their eyes out. It seems reasonable that since humans are evolving, so are animals. They are sentient beings, just like us, who experience fear, suffer pain, are capable of love and loyalty to others. And this goes for cows and pigs, chickens and turkeys and lambs, and not just cute little puppies and kitties.
This is why I like Thich Nhat Hanh, a Zen Buddhist monk from Viet Nam, who supports veganism, which the current Dalai Lama does not. What happens every minute of every day to innocent animals is horrific. Human beings are the devil, from many animals' perspective.
Because human beings make excuses for this injustice is one of the reasons I reject religion. Please don't preach a gentle Jesus to me, with bloody hands.
Humans killing animals for food makes them no more the devil to said animal than a wolf is the devil to a sheep . It's the circle of life .
Modern animal factory farms are another matter entirely .
That's exactly what I'm referring to, factory farms. Visit one and see for yourself. Bacon and hamburger will never be appealing again.
Many people believe that humans are still in the primitive state, and animal rights are a part of a very bigger picture that includes racial justice, womens' rights, LGBT issues, democratic reform, and a host of similar and related issues. If you examine human history, we are not that far from eras when human sacrifice, cannibalism, infanticide and infibulation were accepted as normal and acceptable practices, even required by the culture.
I don't approve of factory farms but they are really a result of trying to feed a growing population, coupled with our capitalistic economy . Things will change as people grow more opposed to the concept of treating animals in such a fashion . We are still in the beginning stages of this and are still feeling our way to a more humane way of doing things . It's not that we are instrinsically evil and want to make animals suffer , we are simply learning and bumbling about with how to grow the needed food for ourselves .
I don't approve of factory farms but they are really a result of trying to feed a growing population, coupled with our capitalistic economy . Things will change as people grow more opposed to the concept of treating animals in such a fashion . We are still in the beginning stages of this and are still feeling our way to a more humane way of doing things . It's not that we are instrinsically evil and want to make animals suffer , we are simply learning and bumbling about with how to grow the needed food for ourselves .
Yes, we hope things will change, and that's very likely. But the largest part of the reason for this change is due to the work and dedication of persecuted activists. This is analogous to the work of persecuted freethinkers who affected the severity of religious persecution, a fact (to paraphrase Russell) the religious are quick to forget.
Can I ask a question? You seem pretty firm in your belief system. I respect your personal autonomy and your right to your belief. I'm not going to try and change your mind. But why include the ridicule in your argument? Does your argument need that stuff? The logical term for this type of argument is known as loaded epithets , and it weakens your argument. I challenge you to make your arguments without using ridicule.
I challenge all christians to stop telling atheists they are going to hell.
I have a childhood friend who now lives on the opposite coast. She became a born-again type some years ago. We speak on the phone once or twice a year. The first couple of years were painful, because she threw in a a "Praise the Lord" at the end of every other sentence, but she has calmed down with that now.
About a month before the 2016 Pres election, she called and asked me what I thought. I (truthfully) said I didn't like either of the two main candidates, but I was too afraid of where the conversation was going to get into it any deeper.
The next day she sent me an article by a fundamentalist preacher that explained why a vote for one candidate was a vote for God and a vote for the other a vote for Satan. I just did not respond,for harmony's sake.
Thank you.
It's no different than Friday night when I had some friends over to eat and play cards. I forbade more than a passing reference to politics because one of the four of us was a Trump supporter, and I didn't want her to feel ganged up on...and since our purpose was to have fun.
Now, if I had gotten together with some people to talk about religion...well, no holds barred.
With the Mod hat off: In addition to the no-proselytizing restriction, you should be aware that most of the regular posters on A&A are already familiar with the basic tenets of Christianity. Many are former Christians themselves, others have studied Christianity and its Scripture in depth without ever having been believers. It would be a mistake to assume you are offering information that has not been heard before.
Some Christians seem to have this idea that if they just tell people this "good news", they'll jump at it. The fact that this subforum exists belies that notion. Trust me, they've heard it before.
Yes. I have never understood why believers think that people who don't believe in the bible will suddenly believe in the bible if they are suddenly pelted with bible verses. I was a christian for six decades. I had my fill and finally broke free of the cult.
Yes. I have never understood why believers think that people who don't believe in the bible will suddenly believe in the bible if they are suddenly pelted with bible verses. I was a christian for six decades. I had my fill and finally broke free of the cult.
I seem to recall that your were still a Christian or at least theist when you arrived. After comparing the relative performances, it took you about a fortnight to plump for atheism. If my memory is correct. Although as you have said, Buddhist atheism.
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