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Good points. I remember when people would point this out to me, I was under the notion that god, being the supreme everything, could simply do as deemed, and was under no obligation to behave under the laws of physics, and, in fact, it would make more sense that god didn't, just so it was understood where the real power was. Neither I, at the time, nor those talking to me made a compelling case that "COULD occur" and DID occur with absolute certainty" were rightly synonymous and accepting they were was an emotional, not logical position. That MIGHT have helped create a crack for me personally. Hard to say, I was quite resolute in my self-righteousness. I never expected testing/validation to have any merit, after all it was a once in a while thing and you can't control when god did or did not choose to do what he does. There is a legitimate and well crafted logic to the arguments, if you are convinced a god entity is the master of all. Which is why I think the preponderance of atheists arguments fail to move a theist, because they never really sweep the feet out from under that idea.
Emotional fortitude can be disrupted in many ways, but seldom with arguments for which there is a pseudo emotional/quasi-intellectual basis. The problem lies in the fact a believer can switch feet rapidly, when the emotional basis is weakened, the quasi-intellectual basis can bear the load of maintaining position and back again as necessary. Couple that with the law of consistency, and it takes some skill, timing, and a bit of luck to create a fracture.
One of the consistent discoveries of modern science has been the observation that things seem to occur for natural and understandable reasons. The driving force for all change is quantum mechanics, and quantum mechanics does not seem to be driven by any higher intelligence. If there IS a higher intelligence at work, then at some point that fact should present itself as being an undeniable characteristic of our existence. Which is, of course, what believers are claiming. It has been my experience that few believers have any genuine understanding of how quantum mechanics work, or the incredible advancements in comprehending the workings of the universe made by science just since the beginning of the 20th century. Many believers simply do not possess the ability to understand. The rest have an emotional motivation for not really wanting to know.
In my case all but a very few close friends (also unbelievers), know that I am no longer a believer, as I have no interest in alienating many of the people I love over something that doesn't exist. That gives me a bit of an edge, because those that assume I am religious intrinsically allow me in, whereas an avowed atheist, or even 'unbeliever', is mentally and emotionally held at bay for any and all dialog, they are satanic, evil, vile, baby eaters, immoral, licentious, depraved, barely humans.
I use this in to point out little things to weaken their resolution, a little here and there, and crafted well they tend to begrudgingly agree their position is not as fortified as they believe it to be. Sure they all SAY, they don't have it ALL correct, and are probably wrong on some things, but they don't know what or where those things are, nor will they seek them out. That's where I come in and help them.
We all know some VERY, VERY intelligent people that are quite religious, so if intelligence alone was the liberator, it would be not be the case. It is the carefully crafted coupling of mis-education, social and legal pressure, brain bugs, emotions, and pseudo-rationale, assembled and refined over millenia, that appeals to people.
We all know some VERY, VERY intelligent people that are quite religious, so if intelligence alone was the liberator, it would be not be the case. It is the carefully crafted coupling of mis-education, social and legal pressure, brain bugs, emotions, and pseudo-rationale, assembled and refined over millenia, that appeals to people.
Intelligence is compartmentalized, I don't think I've ever met anyone who was good at absolutely everything. There aren't any of us who wouldn't wind up looking foolish if the task is one which requires a specific type of brain power which we don't posses. I suspect this accounts for the "VERY VERY" intelligent believers you reference above. And it isn't just intelligence, the emotional make up of one of those "VERY VERY's " may be responsible for clinging to religious belief.
I tend to think of atheists and agnostics as the sorts who were gifted in the area of seeing through comforting falsehoods (well, generally, not all of course) but that doesn't mean that these same people will be good at math, great public speakers, handy with languages or mechanically clever.
In my case all but a very few close friends (also unbelievers), know that I am no longer a believer, as I have no interest in alienating many of the people I love over something that doesn't exist. That gives me a bit of an edge, because those that assume I am religious intrinsically allow me in, whereas an avowed atheist, or even 'unbeliever', is mentally and emotionally held at bay for any and all dialog, they are satanic, evil, vile, baby eaters, immoral, licentious, depraved, barely humans.
I use this in to point out little things to weaken their resolution, a little here and there, and crafted well they tend to begrudgingly agree their position is not as fortified as they believe it to be. Sure they all SAY, they don't have it ALL correct, and are probably wrong on some things, but they don't know what or where those things are, nor will they seek them out. That's where I come in and help them.
We all know some VERY, VERY intelligent people that are quite religious, so if intelligence alone was the liberator, it would be not be the case. It is the carefully crafted coupling of mis-education, social and legal pressure, brain bugs, emotions, and pseudo-rationale, assembled and refined over millenia, that appeals to people.
There have been some VERY, VERY intelligent people over the centuries who were celebrated both for their intelligence and their religious faith. As a rule none of them were aware that E=MC²; energy can neither be created or destroyed; or that quantum mechanics appears to explain ongoing change. Because these insights are a product of the 20th century. There does appear to be a direct relationship to understanding the implication of these insights into the workings of the universe, and eschewing the supernatural conclusions however.
There are still questions that haven't yet been satisfactorily answered of course. And until they are, believers will have a basis for their continued emotional desire to believe.
There are still questions that haven't yet been satisfactorily answered of course. And until they are, believers will have a basis for their continued emotional desire to believe.
I highly suspect that will continue long past the point that understanding passes "satisfactorily answered", simply due to emotional constitution amongst assorted individuals. Some people seem to have trouble coping with ceasing to exist, others do not. Some people seem to have an overwhelming NEED to FEEL RIGHT, regardless of being so or not, others are happy to have a continuum of education. Some people simply lavish the power/wealth/control religion endows upon them. The list of reasons is long enough to ensure religions will likely last a long time into our evolution.
Intelligence is compartmentalized, I don't think I've ever met anyone who was good at absolutely everything. There aren't any of us who wouldn't wind up looking foolish if the task is one which requires a specific type of brain power which we don't posses. I suspect this accounts for the "VERY VERY" intelligent believers you reference above. And it isn't just intelligence, the emotional make up of one of those "VERY VERY's " may be responsible for clinging to religious belief.
I tend to think of atheists and agnostics as the sorts who were gifted in the area of seeing through comforting falsehoods (well, generally, not all of course) but that doesn't mean that these same people will be good at math, great public speakers, handy with languages or mechanically clever.
Astute and observationally supported, ....imagine that!
I highly suspect that will continue long past the point that understanding passes "satisfactorily answered", simply due to emotional constitution amongst assorted individuals. Some people seem to have trouble coping with ceasing to exist, others do not. Some people seem to have an overwhelming NEED to FEEL RIGHT, regardless of being so or not, others are happy to have a continuum of education. Some people simply lavish the power/wealth/control religion endows upon them. The list of reasons is long enough to ensure religions will likely last a long time into our evolution.
This has been occuring in the dispute over evolution. Evolution has long since passed the point where it has been satisfactorily proven. So believers have resorted to constructing strawman examples of evolution, and then claiming that these strawman examples of evolution have lost favor even with scientists. Which is of course true, because the strawman examples of evolution were never in favor with scientists to begin with.
The bottom line is, what is now occurring is a marked delineation between well educated scientifically literate individuals, and individuals who still cling to ancient superstition. And of course, the well educated scientifically literate individuals are best qualified for the high paying tech jobs, leaving the individuals who still cling to ancient superstition only the lower paying service jobs. The statistics show that the percentage of the US population that subscribe to religious beliefs has fallen from about 90% to about 70% just in the last 20 years. There is real incentive to acquire the education necessary to pull down the good paying jobs. And a solid education is proving to be poison to ancient superstitious beliefs.
Many atheists like to respond to questions about why they don't believe in god (or a god) with questions like, "Why don't you believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa?". But it rarely seems to communicate an answer that makes sense to the religious person, while making complete sense to the atheist. This failure to accommodate the perspective of the asking agent, results in failing to reach the asker's intellect, because they don't see the Easter Bunny and God on the same level. One a fantasy, the other the Master of the Universe.
I'm curious to hear about more successful approaches to accommodate that person's perspective, without alienating them, and connect with their sensibility. What has worked for you?
Perhaps answering such a question with something more contemporary would help? "Why don't you believe in God?" could be answered (to a Christian) with something like, "for the same reason you don't follow Allah*" or "I don't believe in God for the same reason you aren't Jewish... or Buddhist."
It just seems a little less condescending while still getting the same point across. Then again, I don't know why anyone would ask an atheist why he or she didn't believe in God. I've never done that just like I never ask my Muslim neighbors why they aren't Christian. It just seems rude.
Do people ask you these questions to try and convert you? That's a whole different can of worms and even if you did believe in God, if you didn't believe the exact right things, they would still lecture you.
* Allah is literally just "God" in Arabic, but most people don't know that. Go to a Christian church in an Arabic speaking country and they pray to Allah.
. Then again, I don't know why anyone would ask an atheist why he or she didn't believe in God. I've never done that just like I never ask my Muslim neighbors why they aren't Christian. It just seems rude.
Do people ask you these questions to try and convert you? That's a whole different can of worms and even if you did believe in God, if you didn't believe the exact right things, they would still lecture you.
Oh yes, that question is a prelude to a lecture on how we are wrong, misguided, ignorant, stubborn, doomed, damned or - bless our pea pickin' hearts - just need to let Jesus into our hearts.
Oh yes, that question is a prelude to a lecture on how we are wrong, misguided, ignorant, stubborn, doomed, damned or - bless our pea pickin' hearts - just need to let Jesus into our hearts.
If that's the case then the answer is you can't win. They are looking to "convince" you, they aren't just curious about you as a person and why you made the choices you did. Maybe the strategy would be to answer another question completely, haha.
"Why don't you believe in God?"
"You know, a long time ago, when I was in grade school. We had to pick chocolate or plain milk. We had to do this at the beginning of the day too. But the chocolate milk always cost more and I never had enough milk money. I don't know what they charged more. Was that fake chocolate syrup really five cents more a carton? Guess we will never know, huh?"
"Have you accepted Jesus into your heart?"
"You know, I had a guy fix the bricks on my walkway and I think his name was Jesus (pronounced properly for Spanish). No wait, it was Manuel. He was a great guy and told the best jokes. And he really like Orange Crush too. Ever try the stuff? It's really sweet. Even too sweet for me."
People will think you are crazy, but it works for me when I don't want to answer a question. If they don't bite the first time, I keep repeating nonsense answers. Usually people give up before I do because I am easily amused by such nonsense (and I don't care what people think of me). It's the best way to deflect that sort of thing. It's like conversational judo.
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