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By being advocates for atheism and presenting ourselves in a rational way (not as a bunch of crazies who oppose - and rant against - the belief of religion in others). Community involvement, education, be an active presence FOR atheism, as opposed to just being an active voice AGAINST religion. There is a HUGE difference.
This is the whole point of the discussion - it is equality we (activist) are pushing for, not dominance. And I have said -several times - that we DO seem to be effective, so the advice that we may be hurting our own cause does not seem to stand up.
This is what I meant when i said that your 'explanations' (objections) had been refuted and why you were asked to explain how you would do it better.
I never gave any ‘advice’, just my opinion. Unlike you, I don’t feel my opinion has any more weight in an online forum than yours does. At least, however, I see that reality - you do not, because it appears who you are relies so much on what transpires in a forum (in your own words, you are the self appointed ‘ruler’ It’s clear, however, to anyone who has read 1/10 of the posts - it’s nothing but memes, personal attacks, distorting or belittling opinions which don’t align with anti-theism, and gossip (‘investigating’ if people are really atheists). No intelligent discussion - and nothing serious about atheism at all. It doesn’t take much for anyone to realize, it will do nothing in terms of positive change (or even contribute to a semi-intelligent discussion) about anything. It’s essentially a closed system of gossip which is doing a great job of displaying atheists as arrogant, obnoxious people who like to sensationalize and sit atop the perch (forum) and be right. It’s discouraging atheism while reinforcing perceptions and stereotypes. Again, no ability to see the bigger picture. And btw, you still do not understand the meaning of the word ‘refute’ nor do you understand the difference between something presented as ‘fact’ vs an opinion.
An attack against religion is the same as attacking alcohol because some people are harmed, or killed by, alcoholism. It would be an ineffective, and useless argument. People will always have a right to enjoy their scotch. But you are thinking in a small-minded way, because you aren’t seeking our equal presence in the population or in government (do you honestly believe anti-theism would get anyone elected to anything). Of course not, it’s a stance based in anger (with the focus on the wrong thing) - but a level-headed, intelligent atheist who focuses on equality and addresses the issues should have that opportunity, despite you and Christians. You aren’t an activist for atheism - the only thing you are fighting for is your damaged ego on a forum. (By the way, you never stated how anti-theism HELPS atheism, you just continually ‘refute’ my opinion with nothing in return.). Success extends beyond a forum - and I was merely expressing my opinion we must know, with a clear head, what we, as atheists, are realistically fighting. Namely, not other atheists or religion - but to change perceptions of what an atheist is. We are (well most of us anyway) are intelligent, independent thinking individuals who have equal rights with any religious group in this country. It’s my opinion posting memes, personal assaults, or belittling other atheist’s opinions with gossip and innuendo is not the way to effectively to change anything.
Last edited by CorporateCowboy; 03-07-2019 at 10:54 AM..
Yet another 'atheist' trying to protect religion. Must be a new breed!
Read my post again. I’m not ‘protecting’ religion; I’m simply not ‘against’ it just as I’m not against alcohol in the fight against alcoholism. It’s short-sided and a waste of energy; it simply does nothing to help atheism long-term.
I’m fighting for atheists to be a part of the mainstream - and for atheists to be involved in their communities and government. As long as atheists are perceived as a bunch of angry crazies in forums throwing down insults and memes at everyone (including other atheists), that isn’t going to happen.
I never gave any ‘advice’, just my opinion. Unlike you, I don’t feel my opinion has any more weight in an online forum than yours does. At least, however, I see that reality - you do not, because it appears who you are relies so much on what transpires in a forum (in your own words, you are the self appointed ‘ruler’ It’s clear, however, to anyone who has read 1/10 of the posts - it’s nothing but memes, personal attacks, distorting or belittling opinions which don’t align with anti-theism, and gossip (‘investigating’ if people are really atheists). No intelligent discussion - and nothing serious about atheism at all. It doesn’t take much for anyone to realize, it will do nothing in terms of positive change (or even contribute to a semi-intelligent discussion) about anything. It’s essentially a closed system of gossip which is doing a great job of displaying atheists as arrogant, obnoxious people who like to sensationalize and sit atop the perch (forum) and be right. It’s discouraging atheism while reinforcing perceptions and stereotypes. Again, no ability to see the bigger picture. And btw, you still do not understand the meaning of the word ‘refute’ nor do you understand the difference between something presented as ‘fact’ vs an opinion.
Still dickering about the semantics of 'refute'? You know just what I mean and so does everyone else. And you reiterate 'opinion' as excusing you from giving any substantiation. very well, but you can't them expect anyone to credit what your Opinion is.
Quote:
An attack against religion is the same as attacking alcohol because some people are harmed, or killed by, alcoholism. It would be an ineffective, and useless argument. People will always have a right to enjoy their scotch. But you are thinking in a small-minded way, because you aren’t seeking our equal presence in the population or in government (do you honestly believe anti-theism would get anyone elected to anything). Of course not, it’s a stance based in anger (with the focus on the wrong thing) - but a level-headed, intelligent atheist who focuses on equality and addresses the issues should have that opportunity, despite you and Christians. You aren’t an activist for atheism - the only thing you are fighting for is your damaged ego on a forum. (By the way, you never stated how anti-theism HELPS atheism, you just continually ‘refute’ my opinion with nothing in return.). Success extends beyond a forum - and I was merely expressing my opinion we must know, with a clear head, what we, as atheists, are realistically fighting. Namely, not other atheists or religion - but to change perceptions of what an atheist is. We are (well most of us anyway) are intelligent, independent thinking individuals who have equal rights with any religious group in this country. It’s my opinion posting memes, personal assaults, or belittling other atheist’s opinions with gossip and innuendo is not the way to effectively to change anything.
What a mess. Aside from your personals bout me, you say that arguing that something is harmful is useless because people will do it anyway. Maybe they will, but that doesn't make it wrong to ague against it and I have repeatedly explained that people Do listen. The increase in irreligion supports rather than refutes that.
And 'equal rights' is what we are arguing for anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
Yet another 'atheist' trying to protect religion. Must be a new breed!
Still dickering about the semantics of 'refute'? You know just what I mean and so does everyone else. And you reiterate 'opinion' as excusing you from giving any substantiation. very well, but you can't them expect anyone to credit what your Opinion is.
Semantics is an important issue when you so adamantly argue a side to an argument. It’s importsnt to know the difference between something presented as fact - and something presented as an opinion. And besides, you STILL have not given me your side as to how anti-theism
What a mess. Aside from your personals bout me, you say that arguing that something is harmful is useless because people will do it anyway. Maybe they will, but that doesn't make it wrong to ague against it and I have repeatedly explained that people Do listen. The increase in irreligion supports rather than refutes that.
And 'equal rights' is what we are arguing for anyway.
.
No you are not fighting for equal rights; you are fighting over ‘logic’ in order to be on top in a forum. Big difference. And as far as semantics, it’s important to know what the word means (and the difference between something presented as fact vs. something presented as an opinion). Besides, you STILL have not given me your angle as to HOW you feel anti-theism and throwing down countless memes and insults is effectively showcasing (and fighting FOR) atheism. It simply doesn’t.
Read my post #777 again. It’s an argument against anti-theism, not you. My views are about promoting atheism, and anti-theism only blurs that cause. As long as people perceive atheism as anti-religious in general, we will never change views and stereotypes on atheists (and that effects our ability to be recognized as intelligent, reasonable, independent thinking individuals rather than a bunch of crazies imposing our disbelief on others). We have just as much right to be seen and heard in our communities as anyone else - but being loud FOR atheism is far different than being loud against religion. It won’t solve our problem of being misrepresented and stereotyped; it exacerbates it.
And there is such a thing as all talk and no action.
Not referring to anyone in particular, of course.
But we are speaking to the behavior and opinions expressed in this forum - and how anti-theism online can (and does) influence atheism in a very negative way (in this, or other, forums). If we are seen as a bunch of angry crazies trying to impose our disbeliefs online (and spread gossip about other atheists), the potential harm in that (in my opinion) is enormous in terms of bringing atheism into the mainstream. All of us should want to make it so people don’t hate atheists (or are not afraid to identify as such). Anything less than that, ultimately - is sabotaging our cause. That’s the issue. That’s the action which is needed to encourage (and be an advocate for) atheism.
Last edited by CorporateCowboy; 03-07-2019 at 03:52 PM..
But we are speaking to the behavior and opinions expressed in this forum - and how anti-theism online can (and does) influence atheism in a very negative way (in this, or other, forums). If we are seen as a bunch of angry crazies trying to impose our disbeliefs online (and spread gossip about other atheists), the potential harm in that (in my opinion) is enormous in terms of bringing atheism into the mainstream. All of us should want to make it so people don’t hate atheists (or are not afraid to identify as such). Anything less than that, ultimately - is sabotaging our cause. That’s the issue. That’s the action which is needed to encourage (and be an advocate for) atheism.
Being action-oriented is not being an angry crazy.
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It’s clear, however, to anyone who has read 1/10 of the posts - it’s nothing but memes, personal attacks, distorting or belittling opinions which don’t align with anti-theism, and gossip (‘investigating’ if people are really atheists). No intelligent discussion - and nothing serious about atheism at all. It doesn’t take much for anyone to realize, it will do nothing in terms of positive change (or even contribute to a semi-intelligent discussion) about anything. It’s essentially a closed system of gossip which is doing a great job of displaying atheists as arrogant, obnoxious people who like to sensationalize and sit atop the perch (forum) and be right. It’s discouraging atheism while reinforcing perceptions and stereotypes. Again, no ability to see the bigger picture. And btw, you still do not understand the meaning of the word ‘refute’ nor do you understand the difference between something presented as ‘fact’ vs an opinion.
