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I suppose that the Church supporting even one artist to create a work of art is well worth the burning of heritics, the inquisition and treating the Jews as vermin?
This is what one of your comrades said about atheists:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains
Real atheists do not believe in god. End of story. They can then be intolerant, bigoted, undeducated, crass, brilliant, empathic, humanitarian, artistic, or anything else.
I could easily say the same:
Real Christians believe in god. End of story. They can then be intolerant, bigoted, undeducated, crass, brilliant, empathic, humanitarian, artistic, or anything else.
At the end of the day we are talking about the defects of the human condition. And by the way the Christians committed those atrocities a long time ago when people were ignorant. Atheists murdered over 100 million less than 80 years ago in the 20th century (many years after the enlightenment). But, I would not blame the atheistic philosophy.
I do not need you to teach me the power the Church had one people nor to I appreciate the efforts you make to seem as if nothing could have flourished without the Church.
We will never know, but I admit the Church was incredibly powerful and corrupted. All the kings and Queens of Europe had to bend the knee to the Pope. And a king could not be coronated without the blessing of the Pope. And Royal marriages could not happen unless the Pope approved.
Quote:
You have yet to back your earlier claim that prior to Christianity no one understood the concepts of fairness or religious tolerance. In fact you haven't even addressed if Christians were fair and tolerant compared to the others.
You are wondering why people that lived many hundreds of years ago were not fair? Are you serious? Do you actually expect people that lived many centuries ago to behave with 21st century standards. Gee, even this era is full of unfair situations.
This is what one of your comrades said about atheists:
I could easily say the same:
Real Christians believe in god. End of story. They can then be intolerant, bigoted, undeducated, crass, brilliant, empathic, humanitarian, artistic, or anything else.
You would be correct. Individual Christians, or theists of any denomination including Islam, will run the full spectrum of human possibility.
Quote:
At the end of the day we are talking about the defects of the human condition. And by the way the Christians committed those atrocities a long time ago when people were ignorant. Atheists murdered over 100 million less than 80 years ago in the 20th century (many years after the enlightenment). But, I would not blame the atheistic philosophy.
Here we differ in opinion.
I can point to discrimination and horror done in the name of religion. The Crusades, the inquisition, anti-LGBT legislation, 9/11, etc. The common theme with all of these things is that religion caused the hate, or was used to justify it.
The genocides of the 20th century were not done because of atheism, or justified by atheism. They were done because of communist or totalitarian ideology. Atheism was a tool used to restrict religion and control people.
This is what one of your comrades said about atheists:
I could easily say the same:
Real Christians believe in god. End of story. They can then be intolerant, bigoted, undeducated, crass, brilliant, empathic, humanitarian, artistic, or anything else.
At the end of the day we are talking about the defects of the human condition. And by the way the Christians committed those atrocities a long time ago when people were ignorant. Atheists murdered over 100 million less than 80 years ago in the 20th century (many years after the enlightenment). But, I would not blame the atheistic philosophy.
The former Yugoslavia was recent, the bombing ofcivilians in Bagdad was recent. The burning alive of Iraqi troupe as they were retreating from Kuwait was recent.
Not sure why you feel the need to keep posting apologies for deeds done by Christians ipin a forum for those who do not believe in Christainity. I suspect that from now until you get bored you will change every thread in this forum to ones about how superior Christian values and contibutions are to everyone else and that anyone who disagrees with a single word of yours hates Christians.
After the enlightenment Christians killed more people in the Americas and Africa than atheists led governments had. That you need to change, ignore and distort history so much to have it fill your narrative to support your agenda of making each thread about you promoting Christainity demonstrates your lack of honesty. As do your posts which vary from Christians can do no wrong to they are only people.
These should be discussed in the correct forums, either R&S or history.
One simple question, why do you wish to high jack this particular forum?
The genocides of the 20th century were not done because of atheism, or justified by atheism. They were done because of communist or totalitarian ideology. Atheism was a tool used to restrict religion and control people.
You do make a point, but those folks were atheists. In fact they purged religion very aggressively. But, they murdered in the name of socialism. Good point! Would Christian socialists murder in the same manner? We will never know.
The former Yugoslavia was recent, the bombing ofcivilians in Bagdad was recent. The burning alive of Iraqi troupe as they were retreating from Kuwait was recent.
Not sure why you feel the need to keep posting apologies for deeds done by Christians ipin a forum for those who do not believe in Christainity. I suspect that from now until you get bored you will change every thread in this forum to ones about how superior Christian values and contibutions are to everyone else and that anyone who disagrees with a single word of yours hates Christians.
After the enlightenment Christians killed more people in the Americas and Africa than atheists led governments had. That you need to change, ignore and distort history so much to have it fill your narrative to support your agenda of making each thread about you promoting Christainity demonstrates your lack of honesty. As do your posts which vary from Christians can do no wrong to they are only people.
These should be discussed in the correct forums, either R&S or history.
One simple question, why do you wish to high jack this particular forum?
I will say it again. It is an impossible task to judge people that lived hundreds of years ago with 21st century standards.
We will never know, but I admit the Church was incredibly powerful and corrupted. All the kings and Queens of Europe had to bend the knee to the Pope. And a king could not be coronated without the blessing of the Pope. And Royal marriages could not happen unless the Pope approved.
You are wondering why people that lived many hundreds of years ago were not fair? Are you serious? Do you actually expect people that lived many centuries ago to behave with 21st century standards. Gee, even this era is full of unfair situations.
I wished you would respond to what I state not some inaccurate statement you claim I make.
You stated Christainity brought both concepts , fairness and religious tolerance to the west.
Prior to Christianity both of those concepts were already incorporated with Wicca and maybe others. What you are trying to do is compare Christians in 2019 to non Christians in 2000 BCE to show that Christians may be more tolerant and fairer. We don't know that this is true. But the Christian Europe was not more fair and religious tolerant the Europe without Christians, or at least you have yet to provide any evidence.
Don't bother responding as spend most of my efforts trying to figure out why you twist and distort whatever I post into something totally different. Maybe that is your agenda, frustrating atheists by your blatant misrepresentation that we simply stop posting.
We will never know, but I admit the Church was incredibly powerful and corrupted. All the kings and Queens of Europe had to bend the knee to the Pope. And a king could not be coronated without the blessing of the Pope. And Royal marriages could not happen unless the Pope approved.
You make several factual errors here, and you speak as if several hundred years of history had the same rules throughout.
Popes varied in power throughout the medieval and Renaissance eras. On the whole, they weren’t particularly powerful, and for a hundred years the French crown had a schismatic line of pet popes.
Royal marriages did not have to be approved by the papacy, and while coronations tended to be presided over by a papal legate, cardinal, or archbishop this was a matter of a rubber stamp, not an act of approval or permission. The early medieval period did not even recognize the primacy of the pope, rather, the pope was merely one of 5 senior bishops of Christendom, the other co-equal patriarchs seated in Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.
Your medieval history is weak. You should probably study the subject before making definitive statements on a topic you obviously don’t know much about.
Moderator cut: Quoted post was deleted,m so this response is too.
Last edited by mensaguy; 04-28-2019 at 05:16 AM..
Reason: Edit
I will say it again. It is an impossible task to judge people that lived hundreds of years ago with 21st century standards.
You are totally correct , it is 2019 and the only thing we can say about people is that throughout history Christians are the very best.. And unlike non Christians they cannot be held accountable for their past.
I do apologize to all the atheists on this forum, I am obviously a very stupid person as every response that Julian has made to my post has shown that I said something totally different from what I meant or even thought..
You make several factual errors here, and you speak as if several hundred years of history had the same rules throughout.
Popes varied in power throughout the medieval and Renaissance eras. On the whole, they weren’t particularly powerful, and for a hundred years the French crown had a schismatic line of pet popes.
Royal marriages did not have to be approved by the papacy, and while coronations tended to be presided over by a papal legate, cardinal, or archbishop this was a matter of a rubber stamp, not an act of approval or permission. The early medieval period did not even recognize the primacy of the pope, rather, the pope was merely one of 5 senior bishops of Christendom, the other co-equal patriarchs seated in Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem.
Your medieval history is weak. You should probably study the subject before making definitive statements on a topic you obviously don’t know much about.
“I suspect”. Another way of saying something completely devoid of fact.
Ok, you have made good points. I overestimated the power of the Popes.
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