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that doesn't really answer it does it. The guy gave people that don't give the whole truth, but aren't really lying either, the name "obscurist". it fits.
It didn't bother me at first, in fact I didn't care at all. then they start accusing some theist of doing the exact same thing. why is ok for my statement of belief to be doing that? but when another statement of belief about god does it they jump all over it.
then when comparing statements of beliefs about god to come up with a relative validity list, with holding information "so theist can't use it and make atheism harder to sell" just didn't seem remotely close to the best we can do.
it dawned on me, after a little experiment, that it wasn't the belief driving this behavior, its personality that drives the expression of belief. sick people have sick beliefs. weather god or otherwise.
Then you answered your own question which fits right with the topic of the thread. I didn't answer because I haven't seen the comments about "making atheism harder to sell." If I saw that, then I would be interested. What I have seen is an attempt to recruit especially people who articulate themselves quite well. But I don't put much stock in it.
I do agree with you about personality driving the expression of belief.
Then you answered your own question which fits right with the topic of the thread. I didn't answer because I haven't seen the comments about "making atheism harder to sell." If I saw that, then I would be interested. What I have seen is an attempt to recruit especially people who articulate themselves quite well. But I don't put much stock in it.
I do agree with you about personality driving the expression of belief.
yup,
I should of saved them. I mean it was so clear what they were doing. They were so utterly focused on "evil religious people" that they lost sight. He stopped engaging me as soon as I focused on that tactic and discussing atheism "sales" terms of "obscurantism" and that I felt that is kind of deceitful.
I always believed that when selling a product, we should watch out for the person we are selling to. Always keep in mind that they may be bringing your product into their homes. I am a lousy sales man.
They have changed their tune since then though. I would love for trans to give us the ''"some of us feel that religion is so dangerous ..." speech again. In relation to the our discussion when I told him that stating we are surrounded by life, as apposed to non life is more valid than just saying its "natural".
that speech is shows the diference in our atheism. I am not in that sect of atheism.
maybe Ill go and look a bit ...
yes personality, that is at the root core. why focus on the final product? if a person keeps getting cut, why not address what is actually doing the cutting? it aint the bible?
I wouldn't call it anything publicly and, in the end, it wouldn't bother me.
What is he on about? I'm aware of Arach's 'Living Universe' mantra and I simply don't care. The ban on discussing science is only when it gets off topic and becomes just a science -discussion. Mordant and I have no say in this.
The 'not one of us' point (if it means anything at all' is rather the other way around - 'New' atheists are 'the wrong kind of atheist'. It is something we hear quite a bit of. Also Arach, because his thinking seems often so damnably poor, becomes an embarrassment to atheism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02
Then you answered your own question which fits right with the topic of the thread. I didn't answer because I haven't seen the comments about "making atheism harder to sell." If I saw that, then I would be interested. What I have seen is an attempt to recruit especially people who articulate themselves quite well. But I don't put much stock in it.
I do agree with you about personality driving the expression of belief.
It's all out of his own head. he's a bugger for taking quotes out of context. I explained about why I (or we) have to make a stand on a 'Creator' even if it isn't really relevant to the religion - debate. We know that the tactic is to wangle anything theism can pin the 'god' label onto into some kind of acceptance, and use that as a springboard to Biblegod (the leap pf Faith). "Springboard" in another term that Arach seized on and was screaming 'Springboard is the mantra of these emotion -driven atheist Fundies'. It doesn't even make any sense.
Trying to explain the tactics behind what is in fact a logically coherent position (the claim of a Creator' has not met its' burden of proof') falls on deaf ears. He doesn't want to understand - only bash.
Actually he is unimportant. I find Kara on Russell far more interesting .
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-08-2019 at 05:43 PM..
So your comment about him being cold-blooded motivated me to find the quote. I did so after using the search function more effectively. It was in the thread about the intelligent being abused.
"Affection is not created; it can only be liberated"
This was your reply.
The quote resonated for me and I am not sure I can adequately explain why. I probably need to read it from the beginning to really understand his purpose for stating it but I can apply it outside of his context.
What was the date of this interchange, by the way?
I started reading the link you provided but I have to warn you that non-fiction tends to help me go to sleep. Therefore, it takes me a while to finish.
I started reading the link you provided but I have to warn you that non-fiction tends to help me go to sleep. Therefore, it takes me a while to finish.
Oh, okay; thanks. I remember all that now. Not the first time I've been accused of being negative about men. It's really perfectly justified, but you'd have to have been aware of being on the receiving end of this particular variety of discrimination to have any clue. "Blaming the victim" is a subject of many feminist essays.
I'm the opposite; most (contemporary) fiction bores me.
Take the statement: "Some people marry
their deceased wives' sisters." I can express this in language
which only becomes intelligible after years of study, and this
gives me freedom. I suggest to young professors that their first
work should be written in a jargon only to be understood
by the erudite few. With that behind them, they can ever
after say what they have to say in a language a understanded
of the people."
Mr. Russell doesn't strike me as a person who would stubbornly use the word obscurantism. Sure, if we had a basic education that allowed us to recognize the root word 'obscure' we could then have an idea of its meaning. However, I still rely on context to fully understand the personality behind the use of the word. Is the person being obscure in order to be taken seriously by universities? Is the person being obscure because they don't live according to what they preach? Or do they only want the attention of a certain audience? If a person can understand why somebody is being obscure, I would much prefer that than the actual use of the word.
Going a bit off topic, I am going to quote Mr. Russell from the YouTube video provided in the original post.
Quote:
All human activity is prompted by desire. There is a wholly fallacious theory advanced by some earnest moralists to the effect that it is possible to resist desire in the interest of duty and moral principal. I say this is fallacious not because no man ever acts from a sense of duty but because duty has no hold on him unless he desire to be dutiful.
I like this quote and wanted to comment on it but don't have the time to. I also didn't want to delete it.
Mr. Russell doesn't strike me as a person who would stubbornly use the word obscurantism. Sure, if we had a basic education that allowed us to recognize the root word 'obscure' we could then have an idea of its meaning. However, I still rely on context to fully understand the personality behind the use of the word. Is the person being obscure in order to be taken seriously by universities? Is the person being obscure because they don't live according to what they preach? Or do they only want the attention of a certain audience? If a person can understand why somebody is being obscure, I would much prefer that than the actual use of the word.
Going a bit off topic, I am going to quote Mr. Russell from the YouTube video provided in the original post.
I like this quote and wanted to comment on it but don't have the time to. I also didn't want to delete it.
I know you didn't suggest this, but Russell wasn't being disingenuous, manipulative or intentionally obscure. His early education was framed by the Victorian era and he wrote in that language, consistent with his education and family history (he was an Earl). To understand him, you have to put him in that context.
I know you didn't suggest this, but Russell wasn't being disingenuous, manipulative or intentionally obscure. His early education was framed by the Victorian era and he wrote in that language, consistent with his education and family history (he was an Earl). To understand him, you have to put him in that context.
Yes. He was determined to be understood, so I like that about him.
Yes. He was determined to be understood, so I like that about him.
I like him, too. I had read him for many years before hearing a recording of his voice. It was not what I expected, but a voice from another age and culture and very odd, since my experience of hearing Continental English speakers was zero. It's still a bit off-putting, but I was born in Kansas.
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