One Year Of The Atlanta Streetcar (Reynolds: transfer, neighborhoods, costs)
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I'm interested in how Atlanta's streetcar works out because LA may get something very similar. And I suspect we'll have similar issues. I expect our streetcars will be filled with homeless riding around all day because I don't know anyway to prevent it.
Man it's just such a large amount of money to spend just because certain non-urban people are afraid to ride a bus. A bus which will get you where you're going so much easier. A bus that doesn't have to shut down an entire route due to an auto collision. Other than hoping to attract these non-urban people what are the advantages of streetcars?
“Let’s view this as a lesson, and let’s consider better options that don’t involve taking a lane away from the downtown roads.”
Such as... MARTA heavy rail? Oh wait, nope, you're opposed to that, too.
Basically her preferred option is to not have transit.
I was thinking exactly the same thing. The same people saying the streetcar is a huge waste of money because it shares a lane with cars are the same people crying about traffic but yell that MARTA rail is too expensive to build. Cry cry cry, but refuse every solution given.
Also, the fact that the NY Times casually refrained from indicating that the person they interviewed is a suburban resident opposed to basically all tax-funded initiatives to improve transportation options shows just how biased the media can be. They interviewed two people who didn't like the streetcar without balancing it with people who have ridden it, enjoyed it, and know that the expansion of the network (much of which will be in its own right of way) will greatly improve transit within the City of Atlanta. A suburban viewpoint doesn't really matter - there is no expansion of the streetcar to the suburbs.
I'm interested in how Atlanta's streetcar works out because LA may get something very similar. And I suspect we'll have similar issues. I expect our streetcars will be filled with homeless riding around all day because I don't know anyway to prevent it.
Man it's just such a large amount of money to spend just because certain non-urban people are afraid to ride a bus. A bus which will get you where you're going so much easier. A bus that doesn't have to shut down an entire route due to an auto collision. Other than hoping to attract these non-urban people what are the advantages of streetcars?
The streetcars incentivize development in areas where it there is room for it. This happens both in the form of new developments, as well as concentrating already looking developers. With this, the city is attempting to fill in empty / underused space along the routes. There has been over $600 million invested in the streetcar's corridor. That's six times the cost of the whole project, paying city / metro citizens for the construction and employing people to work in those new places, and ultimately adding to the tax base of the city and county while filling in the neighborhood. Some of this was already planned, some of it was brought in instead of in another location in the city, and some of it wouldn't be there if the streetcar wasn't in place.
This is something a standard bus has not been able to do in this country (that I know of).
As far as their transit capabilities, streetcars are still better than a bus for the inner core. One Siemens S70 streetcar is roughly equivalent to two of MARTA's X40 Xcelsior buses, in both length tip-to-tip and seat capacity. That means that, for every full streetcar, you'd need two buses. That's twice as many drivers and vehicles for the same service. That's more money for salaries, and pensions, and management. That's more maintenance. That's more fuel costs. More, and more, and more.
There's an argument to be made in that the Streetcars aren't always full, but I would argue that that goes back to the first point. The streetcars are, indeed, over built for their corridors, but that's the point. As development is attracted, as MARTA expands, and the city densifies, the suburbs urbanize, there will be more people who are potential riders.
By building the streetcars now, we are not only attracting development now, nor are we only serving those who would ride it now, but we are building for future growth and need. The growth is coming in one form or another, the streetcars just make it easier to handle.
My frustration with the complaining is that the streetcar doesn't exist. What we have is basically a test track.
If the entire 50 mile system were built and operating, the streetcar would be really popular and hailed as a success. This is the same classic problem that has always hurt the usefulness of MARTA rail. Transit works because of NETWORK benefit. A streetcar in Sweet Auburn is not doing much good if you can't ride the streetcar from another part of the city to get there.
It connects with the Peachtree Center MARTA station, which is very difficult to access as well for most of the region, especially for someone who lives in Cobb.
We need to stop doing things half-ass, and then complaining that it's not usable. If the streetcar simply went everywhere in the city, and MARTA rail went everywhere in the region, they would both be really useful, popular, huge success. Anti-transit and anti-tax conservatives more or less CREATE the problems that they then cite about transit, and the whole thing is a self-fulfilling cycle. It's a pretty ingenious little scheme, but it really pisses me off. Let's just properly and fully invest and really go all in on something for once. And if it goes slow then let's get the f'ing cars and red lights out of its path. Quit blaming the streetcar because it has to obey the rules of the road, that we set.
The streetcars incentivize development in areas where it there is room for it. This happens both in the form of new developments, as well as concentrating already looking developers. With this, the city is attempting to fill in empty / underused space along the routes. There has been over $600 million invested in the streetcar's corridor. That's six times the cost of the whole project, paying city / metro citizens for the construction and employing people to work in those new places, and ultimately adding to the tax base of the city and county while filling in the neighborhood. Some of this was already planned, some of it was brought in instead of in another location in the city, and some of it wouldn't be there if the streetcar wasn't in place.
This is something a standard bus has not been able to do in this country (that I know of).
Yeah. I can appreciate that non-urban people view streetcars similar to the way that they might view a monorail at Disney. And that could lead to investment. They're nostalgic. But as public transit the reality is that they are outperformed by buses in many key ways. For example entire lines can be shut down when there are fender benders between autos on their route because they can't do something simple like move to the next lane. Buses can change lanes or even change streets if they need to. Streetcars are stuck.
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As far as their transit capabilities, streetcars are still better than a bus for the inner core. One Siemens S70 streetcar is roughly equivalent to two of MARTA's X40 Xcelsior buses, in both length tip-to-tip and seat capacity. That means that, for every full streetcar, you'd need two buses. That's twice as many drivers and vehicles for the same service. That's more money for salaries, and pensions, and management. That's more maintenance. That's more fuel costs. More, and more, and more.
You say twice as many vehicles as if the costs are similar. Atlanta spent $17 million for four streetcars. That's enough money for 19 buses! And yeah they require additional operators but at least the maintenance infrastructure already exists. Additional maintenance for the streetcars has to cost much more on an annual basis than 6 or 8 buses would cost. That would more than cancel out the additional operating costs.
But like you say, no one is investing hundreds of millions because of a new bus route. So there's that even if it's not the best transit experience. But 50 more miles? Wouldn't Atlanta rather have a new MARTA line instead?
But like you say, no one is investing hundreds of millions because of a new bus route. So there's that even if it's not the best transit experience. But 50 more miles? Wouldn't Atlanta rather have a new MARTA line instead?
If you're referring to heavy rail: Too expensive, doesn't provide last-mile connectivity, and there really isn't anywhere you can add a new line within the city limits.
If you're referring to heavy rail: Too expensive, doesn't provide last-mile connectivity, and there really isn't anywhere you can add a new line within the city limits.
I'm not familiar with the phrase last mile connectivity, but if you mean between home and the rail station don't you have buses for that? And how can Atlanta be out of room for trains? That doesn't seem possible.
As far as costs, the streetcar exceeds $50 million per mile. 50 miles of streetcar would be $2.5 billion. That would fund a nice chunk of new subway.
I'm not familiar with the phrase last mile connectivity, but if you mean between home and the rail station don't you have buses for that? And how can Atlanta be out of room for trains? That doesn't seem possible.
LRT/Streetcar provide permanent lines that (unlike buses) can't be easily shut down at the whim of a MARTA Board vote (which is what happened with many bus routes when the economy crashed in 2008). Also, there really aren't any places in the city of Atlanta where an additional MARTA line makes sense without also running out into the suburbs.
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As far as costs, the streetcar exceeds $50 million per mile. 50 miles of streetcar would be $2.5 billion. That would fund a nice chunk of new subway.
HRT construction runs about $150-200 million per mile, and even more if tunneling is required.
Yeah. I can appreciate that non-urban people view streetcars similar to the way that they might view a monorail at Disney. And that could lead to investment. They're nostalgic. But as public transit the reality is that they are outperformed by buses in many key ways. For example entire lines can be shut down when there are fender benders between autos on their route because they can't do something simple like move to the next lane. Buses can change lanes or even change streets if they need to. Streetcars are stuck.
And yet it's that exact flexability that makes a bus route unattractive to a developer looking to advertise based on transit access. That uber flexable bus line can be flexed right out of existance. That bus line can change streets for its route, or go away. A streetcar is embedded into the road, and physically represents some permenancy. It's not just that people choose not to ride the bus, but that the bus is far too much of a variable compared to a fixed-guideway system like the streetcar for developers.
The reality is that rails and permenant infrastructure are the attractive elements here, and streetcars, with their abilty to opperate in mixed traffic why still showing off an investment in future transit, are an alright choice. Besides, sofar any accidents have not crippled the line's effectiveness for a significant amount of time. The city has been doing a decent job of keeping the rails clear after the first couple months.
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You say twice as many vehicles as if the costs are similar. Atlanta spent $17 million for four streetcars. That's enough money for 19 buses! And yeah they require additional operators but at least the maintenance infrastructure already exists. Additional maintenance for the streetcars has to cost much more on an annual basis than 6 or 8 buses would cost. That would more than cancel out the additional operating costs.
So, again, those buses require drivers. They require maintainers, parts, fuel, etc. All of that costs money. Each driver alone can cost 35k anually. That's an extra 140k a year just for the drivers. There are pensions then, and certain benefits to consider in the long run.
As for the streetcars, there's a reason they are so expensive. We bought them brand new, not because they would be shinier, but because the long term maintenance cosets, and the savings from their extended lifetimes compared to refurbished cars will save us money. They wear out less, and take less to maintain in their life times, which are far longer than a city bus'.
The longer you run the streetcars compared to equivilent buses, the better the savings are in O&M.
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But like you say, no one is investing hundreds of millions because of a new bus route. So there's that even if it's not the best transit experience. But 50 more miles? Wouldn't Atlanta rather have a new MARTA line instead?
Atlanta wants to have both, and nothing is really stopping us from having both except ourselves. MARTA has its plans for expansions, and they make sense on the regional level. Atlanta has plans for its streetcars, which make sense on the city level, and which preform the so very important role of last mile connectivity. The streetcars and light rail fill in gaps a provide better reach from MARTA's heavy rail backbone. The light rail, which makes up nearly half the route miles of the system, will be completly grade seperated from road, meaning it won't have to worry about nearly any traffic problems.
If you specifically mean more MARTA lines downtown, well then you're looking at it without a good grasp of the costs. A single extra line runing through downtown would easily meet, then exceed the cost of the entire streetcar system to build. Between tunneling and the standard higher costs of HRT, we would be paying far more, for substantially less service. Yes, some would rather have the heavy rail, but I personally would rather have a layer of streetcars to compliment any thing that might get built in the future.
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