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Well then just use CID's, then. You get my point, though.
I'd like to see a map of all the Cobb and Gwinnett CID's, and the area in each county that potentially could become a CID or join an existing CID.
Also would be nice to see a recent, updated city limits map of Gwinnett. (Featuring Peachtree Corners city limits).
There should be a way using CID's and cities, to have key parts of Cobb and Gwinnett to join MARTA, while excluding the rest.
The answer to the negatives of Balkanization is not more Balkanization. Certainly not when the CIDs would not be able to pay for the needed services on their own.
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Originally Posted by AUGnative
commuter rail (which I believe was the original idea of GRTA) would make more sense.. limited rush hour service with limited number stops offering express service into Atlanta. The low density sprawl nature of Gwinnett County is just not conducive for a metro system.. Once you get off at the station it is very hard to walk anywhere in Gwinnett. Successful metro systems depend on higher density and pedestrian oriented street patterns and development. That does not exist in Gwinnett. I can see a place for commuter lots that offer rush hour express bus or commuter train service though. GRTA was supposed to do this.. it was supposed to be a commuter transit agency.. it has not really lived up to that goal.
There are absolutely corridors within Gwinnett that need metro-level service. Specifically, the I-85 corridor, which is the most dense and active in the county, needs something far above standard peak-level commuter services. In addition to its current status, the growth projected for Gwinnett over the coming decades, which lines up with the time needed such a line, will only further solidify that corridor. Even if it isn't coupled with a decent Transit Oriented Development plan, that corridor will present solid gains in ridership while supplying much needed high-capacity transit for both commuters and local trips.
The same goes for the historic rail-road towns that could be connected by metro-lite commuter rail. Each town center still retains a fair amount of its walkability. Station-anchored developments would only add to that, while also offering park-n-ride, as some of MARTA's TODs are doing today.
Today Gwinnett county is the second most populous county in the state of Georgia, and the third most dense. By 2040, Gwinnett is projected to surpass Fulton County as the most populated county in the metro. With that, would come Gwinnett's rise to the second most densely populated county in the metro.
It needs more than just a few commuter lines and local buses.
The answer to the negatives of Balkanization is not more Balkanization. Certainly not when the CIDs would not be able to pay for the needed services on their own.
Yeah, well, I'm well aware that you live in a fantasy world, where you won't accept anything anyone suggests, except the thing that will never happen. (Cobb/Gwinnett joining MARTA as we know it.) The truth of it is that by the time those counties come under Democratic, pro-MARTA leadership, GOP will have already gutted MARTA or done something else with it, or something to prevent that from ever happening.
So that's why those of us that are more focused on actual reality, are looking at possible compromises and alternative outcomes such as this. You know, things that actually might could happen.
It's easy to take your hard-line position when you don't live in Cobb, when it's all just some abstract to you. I want my area of town to get MARTA while I still live here. Perfect fantasy solutions can take a back seat for now.
Yeah, well, I'm well aware that you live in a fantasy world, where you won't accept anything anyone suggests, except the thing that will never happen. (Cobb/Gwinnett joining MARTA as we know it.) The truth of it is that by the time those counties come under Democratic, pro-MARTA leadership, GOP will have already gutted MARTA or done something else with it, or something to prevent that from ever happening.
So that's why those of us that are more focused on actual reality, are looking at possible compromises and alternative outcomes such as this. You know, things that actually might could happen.
It's easy to take your hard-line position when you don't live in Cobb, when it's all just some abstract to you. I want my area of town to get MARTA while I still live here. Perfect fantasy solutions can take a back seat for now.
I'm sorry that not accepting defeatist attitudes resulting in awful service is somehow being fanciful to you, and that I just want what is actually best for those counties.
Keep in mind that all these 'realistic' proposals you've made actively hurt the representation for the City of Atlanta and existing MARTA service areas as well as their ability to provide service to the core metro. It's easy for you, from Cobb, to write about all the 'realistic' things that ultimately hurt my home in the long-run.
Why don't you try actually effecting a positive change, like I've been working hard to do, so that we don't have to make crud-tastic compromises to satisfy ignorance.
I'm sorry that not accepting defeatist attitudes resulting in awful service is somehow being fanciful to you, and that I just want what is actually best for those counties.
Keep in mind that all these 'realistic' proposals you've made actively hurt the representation for the City of Atlanta and existing MARTA service areas as well as their ability to provide service to the core metro. It's easy for you, from Cobb, to write about all the 'realistic' things that ultimately hurt my home in the long-run.
Why don't you try actually effecting a positive change, like I've been working hard to do, so that we don't have to make crud-tastic compromises to satisfy ignorance.
And you not being from Cobb (or Gwinnett) will have an easy time wanting our money, wanting to keep control, and dictate how others should feel, build, act, etc...
These types of statements from people are pretty much one of the biggest reasons why people who are warming up to the idea of transit, do not want MARTA. It's a living argument for voting no.
You don't listen or understand others. You tell people your idea of the one way to do things and then you want money from people on a system that puts where you are as the one central area.
As far as alternatives/solutions go, here's another one. This one wouldn't be my favorite outcome by any means, but it seems very possible and likely.
-The various agencies stay the same. MARTA continues to serve its 3 counties, Gwinnett and Cobb have their own agencies, and GRTA serves the rest of the area.
-A new overarching entity is created (by this regional transit study thing), which is like an umbrella over all of those. Like a parent organization. Coordinating and standardizing everything, making them all use the same official transit map and route numberings and everything. Coordinated bus stop signage, etc.
-CCT and GCT each get more tax funding in their respective counties, and are able to do some mass transit, linking with MARTA. Commuter rail in Cobb, and BRT in Gwinnett, probably.
-Because all of it now falls under the same parent organization that coordinates Atlanta regional transit, there's more flexibility about what can serve what, and what can go where. MARTA is allowed to operate some (on a limited basis) in Cobb and Gwinnett. At least a lot more than now. Like, the bus is able to stop in Peachtree Corners and such. (And in return, maybe Gwinnett's BRT solution would have some stations in North DeKalb). And also they're allowed to be more flexible with funding, such as a CID like Six Flags or Cumberland, pitching in some funds to build one or two HRT stations that stretch into Cobb or Gwinnett. Stuff like that. But the commuter rail and express/commuter BRT solutions would not be branded MARTA.
That seems like what's most likely to happen. But I'd be happy to be surprised.
I'm sorry that not accepting defeatist attitudes resulting in awful service is somehow being fanciful to you, and that I just want what is actually best for those counties.
Oh, I want what you want, too. I've wanted Cobb and Gwinnett counties to join MARTA all my life.
But wanting something doesn't make it real, or realistic. We need to work within the scope of reality. That is not defeatism. Refusal to accept anything or unwilling to compromise about anything is not helping.
There's some positive traction and movement now towards some changes and improvements to our metro transit situation, but that doesn't mean Cobb and Gwinnett are going to hold referendums to join MARTA. As I stated, that would be at least a decade off (and tons of leadership change), before that would even be possible. And by then, the conservatives that are in power now, will solidify their own vision, that blocks/pre-empts that vision.
Fighting for something is one thing, but not when what you're fighting for is unattainable, pure fantasy.
And you not being from Cobb (or Gwinnett) will have an easy time wanting our money, wanting to keep control, and dictate how others should feel, build, act, etc...
These types of statements from people are pretty much one of the biggest reasons why people who are warming up to the idea of transit, do not want MARTA. It's a living argument for voting no.
I have, time and time again, stated how Cobb and Gwinnett should actively negotiate to maintain their money for projects in their county.
I have, in detail, explained how they should follow Clayton's lead and dedicate a large portion of their revenue for high-capacity transit that serves their county, with the rest being set aside for a full bus network that serves their county.
I have made no assertions that the existing counties should 'take' money from Cobb or Gwinnett, with the sole exceptions of building the first parts of Cobb and Gwinnett specific lines.
All of that is directly reflected and showcased in the work that I've done for the two counties. You can go read about it in both campaign websites.
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You don't listen or understand others.
I listen plenty, and I have changed my stance when given good enough reason to. I have the math to show how Cobb and Gwinnett could get an amazing deal out of MARTA if only they'd try, though, and I have yet to really see a compelling argument to abandon that place.
Especially from those who mischaracterize me, and don't understand my position.
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You tell people your idea of the one way to do things and then you want money from people on a system that puts where you are as the one central area.
Like it or not, CoA IS the one central area. The combined economic presence of the Midtown-Downtown Spine, let alone Buckhead, FAR outshines any of the isolated, dispersed economic hubs. Not to mention the geographic center that it represents within the metro
Even so, I have proposed TONS of high-capacity routes in the form of Bus Rapid Transit lines to fill in gaps between the commuter rail and heavy rail spokes.
I have further proposed top-end heavy rail for the explicit service of moving between the northern nodes and corridors.
Finally, I have proposed extensive expansion of GRTA to act as cross-county transit where the above is not within reach.
Yet, apparently, I am too focused on serving the core city, and just want to take money out of Cobb and Gwinnett?
I could go on and on about would and could and should, too. But the reality of it will still be won't. So that's why I'd rather discuss and focus on what actually might could really happen. Things that would be positive changes.
Oh, I want what you want, too. I've wanted Cobb and Gwinnett counties to join MARTA all my life.
But wanting something doesn't make it real, or realistic. We need to work within the scope of reality. That is not defeatism. Refusal to accept anything or unwilling to compromise about anything is not helping.
You yourself continually point out how little we actually know about the Cobb citizens' current positions on the matter. You yourself have stepped up to the plate to defend the county and the people against sweeping assumptions of character, and I am glad when you do so.
That said, you're calling this unrealistic in much the same way that others have said that Cobb is full of racists: without data to back it up.
Where's your polling info? Where's your survey? Where's your information on likely voter trends and your profiles of how leaders would respond to that?
Even if it isn't scientific by any means, what petition responses I have gotten from Cobb residents shows an overwhelming support for joining MARTA. Gwinnett has had actual polling data show that it was on the verge of being able to approve the paying for MARTA two years ago, before we had an entire interstate get knocked out of commission.
Without solid evidence that the will of the people actually is to reject MARTA, I can not consider it realistic to do the same. By the same account, yes, giving into certain politicians' lies about what joining the system would look like so that they can install an unrepresentative agency absolutely is defeatist.
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There's some positive traction and movement now towards some changes and improvements to our metro transit situation, but that doesn't mean Cobb and Gwinnett are going to hold referendums to join MARTA. As I stated, that would be at least a decade off (and tons of leadership change), before that would even be possible. And by then, the conservatives that are in power now, will solidify their own vision, that blocks/pre-empts that vision.
Not if you just accept that. Meanwhile, I'll keep fighting for a proper solution that doesn't screw over everyone except a few politicians in the process.
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Fighting for something is one thing, but not when what you're fighting for is unattainable, pure fantasy.
Show me the actual data that says that this is true, because everything that I can actually look at says otherwise.
I could go on and on about would and could and should, too. But the reality of it will still be won't. So that's why I'd rather discuss and focus on what actually might could really happen. Things that would be positive changes.
Nothing will happen if you don't actually fight for it. You're preemptively accepting defeat without actually bothering to push for the best outcome. I refuse to do the same.
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