Will Gwinnett County join MARTA? Not likely, officials say (Atlanta: insurance, neighborhoods)

[primaltech]

If you want to make the LRT vision even more regional, continue that line west from Dunwoody over to Cumberland, and then have a second line that runs from Town Center Mall to Emory, or Town Center Mall to Northlake Mall, via Cumberland and via a Lindbergh MARTA or an Armour MARTA infill.

So with just 2 LRT lines, relatively cheaply, and we'd have every major business district be rail-connected, and Cobb and Gwinnett counties covered while we're at it. And the top end of 285 would have a rail line.

Sign me up.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

If you want to make the LRT vision even more regional, continue that line west from Dunwoody over to Cumberland, and then have a second line that runs from Town Center Mall to Emory, or Town Center Mall to Northlake Mall, via Cumberland and via a Lindbergh MARTA or an Armour MARTA infill.

So with just 2 LRT lines, relatively cheaply, and we'd have every major business district be rail-connected, and Cobb and Gwinnett counties covered while we're at it. And the top end of 285 would have a rail line.

Sign me up.

Unless the line is running at grade, it will not be 'relatively cheaply' over HRT. Once the aerial structures and tunnels are included, how much less would the cost really be? Sound Transit built the University Link tunnel, 3.15 miles for $1.9B. https://www.soundtransit.org/About-S...s-capitol-hill

[primaltech]

Like Seattle's system, there would be a mix of at-grade, elevated, and possibly tunneling. Giving you the max quality and speed at key spots, while saving money on other stretches. All in all, an optimized max-cost-effective approach.

And Gwinnett and Cobb could each fund their line with just a 1/2 penny sales tax. Either joining MARTA at 1/2 penny, or the LRT would be branded something else besides MARTA, such as GRTA or whatever. Either way, funded at 1/2 penny sales tax. And allows Gwinnett and Cobb to still have lower sales taxes than Fulton and DeKalb. It's a reasonable compromise.

For what I am envisioning, there would actually be 1 heavy rail station in Cobb (Six Flags), 1 in Gwinnett (Norcross), and of course 1 in Clayton (Airport), but otherwise all the HRT would be in Fulton/DeKalb.

LRT Line 1 would serve the I-75 corridor between KSU and Arts Center, via Town Center, Marietta, Windy Hill, SunTrust Park, Cumberland/Galleria, West Paces Ferry, Howell Mill, the BeltLine, and Atlantic Station.

LRT Line 2 would serve the I-285 top end and I-85 OTP corridors between Cumberland (connection with Line 1) and Sugarloaf/Gwinnett Arena. Via Gwinnett Place, Indian Trail P&R, a new Norcross station on the MARTA Gold Line, Chamblee-Dunwoody area, Perimeter Center East (Ravinia), Dunwoody MARTA (connect with Red Line), King and Queen (Concourse) towers, Roswell Rd (Downtown Sandy Springs area), western Sandy Springs area, and terminating at Cumberland station which would be on both LRT lines.

Then along with the other plans of extending Red Line heavy rail up to Alpharetta, and Blue Line heavy rail out on I-20, that would basically solve our regional transit issues. With just 2 new lines, and probably less than $5 billion total.

We could raise just 1/10th of what Seattle area is raising ($50 billion), and we could get all that for it. Solving most of our problems with transit connectivity. Probably at least doubling usage of all the existing MARTA stations, if not tripling.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Hence my statement about the I-285 top-end having more cars than GA 400. The top end arch is busier than the GA 400 corridor, which already has well-used heavy rail within it.

A route from Cumberland through Perimeter Center, to Doraville and back would absolutely have the ridership to justify it.

Just because people travel on 285 doesn't mean that is their destination or origin. Maybe there is, but I expect the demand is a lot less than 400 to downtown.

Buses in dedicate ROW is BRT.



But that is not BRT, and those aren't dedicated rights of way.

I'm not saying that HOT-lane buses aren't a good thing, but they are not at all a substitute for heavy rail in a corridor as heavily traveled as the top end arch.

Express Buses using HOT/HOV lanes are not BRT. And they essentially have dedicated right of way. Atlanta's striped HOV lanes don't work as well as physically separated HOV lanes elsewhere.

Let's see. It's 12.5 miles from Cumberland to Doraville across the top end. That's 13min worth of driving with light traffic, but not including any of the exit / entrance ramps.

It's about 12.5 Miles from North Springs to Arts Center. That's 19 min of travel time, not including any of the walk-up / boarding.

It would be quite surprising to me if a top end rail line had more than the 7 stations involved with that trip.

I was referring more to rail lines to the distant suburbs as opposed to 285

What makes you think the route wouldn't be well used? I-285 has more vehicles using it than GA 400, where the Red Line generates plenty of ridership, or are you going to tell me the Red Line should have been HOV-lane express buses?

A top end route would connect two of the metro's high-activity CBDs to one another, as well as provide park-n-ride support for both.

I actually think that you are more degrading service to the CBDs by trying to go the cheap route rather than supplying the level of service they need.



And the park-n-rides could be the MARTA stations to allow transfers for people going anywhere else in the system.

As I said, I don't know how many of those people have origin or destination on 285. Atlanta doesn't have many east west routes so a lot of traffic uses 285 as only part of their journey. If they don't have origin or destination, they wouldn't use transit on that corridor. They probably have done studies on commuting in that corridor, but I don't recall seeing any. In any event, those studies are probably dated by now.

[fourthwarden]

Just because people travel on 285 doesn't mean that is their destination or origin. Maybe there is, but I expect the demand is a lot less than 400 to downtown.

With two of the large CIDs included, and with connections down into the core city? I don't really think so. At least not to the extend that you seem to be suggesting. Especially considering how much more traffic there is along the top-end than going down along GA 400.

Express Buses using HOT/HOV lanes are not BRT. And they essentially have dedicated right of way. Atlanta's striped HOV lanes don't work as well as physically separated HOV lanes elsewhere.

No, they don't have dedicated right of way. They are sharing traffic with cars. You're right, they aren't BRT.

I was referring more to rail lines to the distant suburbs as opposed to 285

But then you have to consider all the extra driving time from the hearts of those areas as well. I still don't think that the time losses are nearly as bad as you make them out to be when considering the rush-hour congestion.

As I said, I don't know how many of those people have origin or destination on 285.

Well, connections to the Red and Gold lines certainly help expand the range of destinations.

Atlanta doesn't have many east west routes so a lot of traffic uses 285 as only part of their journey. If they don't have origin or destination, they wouldn't use transit on that corridor.

While true, I think you're applying this in the wrong direction. That sounds like a good reason to expand heavy rail NW, N, and NE as have all been proposed. I still see an I-285 top end route being incredibly useful, but that only grows as you extend transit and the reach of the route. It's a reason for more service, not less as you're suggesting.

All of your concerns apply to your express bus scheme too, by the way. The difference, though, is that at least HRT stations could anchor TODs in addition to the ridership naturally generated by the route, while still providing enough capacity to serve the corridor effectively as the metro and routes themselves grow.

They probably have done studies on commuting in that corridor, but I don't recall seeing any. In any event, those studies are probably dated by now.

Probably. I know a GDOT study looked at various options, including LRT and properly dedicated BRT.

[cqholt]

Y'all can just forget about dedicated transit-only lanes.

The scope of Revive 285 has evolved with Georgia DOT’s mobility goals for metro Atlanta and now focuses on adding two new barrier-separated Express Lanes in both directions of I-285, alongside the existing general purpose lanes. The I-285 top end Express Lanes would be part of the larger Georgia Express Lanes system, designed to provide drivers more reliable trip times. In addition, transit riders and registered vanpools can utilize the Express Lanes at no additional cost.

I285TopEnd

[primaltech]

Unless they're running buses every 30 seconds or something, dedicated bus lanes are a waste of ROW. The Express Lanes will be fine for a bus solution.

The main transit solution could be the Cumberland-Sugarloaf LRT. Via running in the median of Hammond Drive or whatever.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Unless they're running buses every 30 seconds or something, dedicated bus lanes are a waste of ROW. The Express Lanes will be fine for a bus solution.

The main transit solution could be the Cumberland-Sugarloaf LRT. Via running in the median of Hammond Drive or whatever.

You are all over the place. First you bring up Silver Line-like BRT then you call it a waste of ROW.
Also, what would LRT do when Hammond Dr is 2 lane thru residential neighborhood?

[primaltech]

If they're going to build dedicated ROW for transit, just make a LRT, and make it the same LRT solution that would serve Gwinnett County along the I-85 corridor.

I was simply suggesting that in the interim, before that is built, these mixed-traffic managed express lanes could be at least a much better transit offering than exists right now.

I brought up that Silver Line because you could potentially do BRT stations off of the express HOT lanes. But after then thinking about it, it would be better to just plan long range for an LRT, and just make the buses an express commuter route.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

If they're going to build dedicated ROW for transit, just make a LRT, and make it the same LRT solution that would serve Gwinnett County along the I-85 corridor.

I was simply suggesting that in the interim, before that is built, these mixed-traffic managed express lanes could be at least a much better transit offering than exists right now.

I brought up that Silver Line because you could potentially do BRT stations off of the express HOT lanes. But after then thinking about it, it would be better to just plan long range for an LRT, and just make the buses an express commuter route.

It appears that GDOT has taken Top-end, rail-based transit off the list of possibilities. http://www.revive285.com/ was once a website that offered transportation alternatives for the Top-end, now the website no longer exist. GDOT and SRTA have made their decision, HOT Lanes!