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I understand what you are saying. The sunbelt cities get criticized for not being walkable but they by and large developed with the advent of the automobile. We get slammed because we weren't developed when walking and horsepower were the main means of getting around which gave rise to these fantastic walkable neighborhoods everyone is currently clamoring for (even if they were once dirty, polluted, crammed spaces without the current charm). Even the advent of mass transit changed developmental patterns as 'streetcar suburbs' developed.
So yes, I don't like that much of Atlanta developed on dependence of the automobile and the much dreaded but inevitable 'sprawl' happened. But without the advent of the automobile (and its equally important sister invention... AC) would Atlanta be what it is otherwise? I say still a provincial capital of little importance outside the immediate region.
That is a really good, very interesting, intensely thought-provoking question.
That is an excellent point that Atlanta and other major Sun Belt city/metro regions (Florida metros, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, Nashville, Phoenix, Los Angeles) may not be as walkable as desired because they were largely developed with the advent of the automobile.
But in many cases (particularly and especially in the cases of Sun Belt powerhouse metro regions like Houston, Los Angeles, Dallas, Phoenix, the Florida metros, and Atlanta), it was not just the advent of the automobile that that fostered the sprawling development patterns of Sun Belt metros... It was the advent of airplane travel that played a leading role (if not the leading role) in the robust economic development of basically all of the aforementioned Sun Belt metros.
The advent of the automobile fostered the sprawling development patterns of Sun Belt metros on the ground, but it was the advent of airplane travel that enabled Sun Belt metro regions to prosper and grow economically during the late 20th and very-early 21st centuries.
Air travel has made it possible to travel between the established metros of the Northeast and the previously-isolated less-established metros of the Sun Belt and the West within a matter of a few hours instead of days (or even weeks or months) like before in the earliest parts of the nation's history.
Air travel has also connected the once-provincial parts of the Sun Belt with the rest of the planet (Europe, Asia, Latin America, Africa), bolstering economic development across the entire Sun Belt region.
The automobile enabled a major metro Sun Belt region like Atlanta to grow in a sprawling fashion... But it was the airplane (and Atlanta's growth into a major hub of continental, hemispherical and international air travel) that appears to have enabled Atlanta to grow into a business, entertainment and cultural capital of international importance in the first place.
Without air travel and/or the massive air travel facility at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport, Atlanta most likely truly would still be "a provincial capital of little importance outside of the immediate region" as you stated in your analysis.
Without air travel and even without the investments in air travel infrastructure during the air jet travel age, Atlanta most likely would look like something closer to a smaller more provincial metro like Birmingham (if Atlanta was lucky) than the large major metro of international importance that it has become with the investments in and presence of a massive piece of transportation infrastructure and air travel facility like Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport.
Don't you know that if we let them collapse and then replace them with 2 bike lanes, we won't induce demand anymore and everybody will be better off?
We need to activate the shoulders to create human-scaled, complete highways with organic spaces where even children can play in the median without fear of death machines. It will be more economical, safer, lead to less obesity, be more equitable, cure world hunger, and re-home every orphan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3
i have done a lot of walking recently and just imagined what it would be like if for some reason all of a sudden we didn't have cars or buses or trains anymore. just something to think about, we truly live very far away from each other but have managed to create a system where we feel just as packed in as ever.
See...I don't feel that way. When I go to dense, urban, walkable areas like New York and Chicago where there are people everywhere, that is where I feel packed in.
That is a really good, very interesting, intensely thought-provoking question.
That is an excellent point that Atlanta and other major Sun Belt city/metro regions (Florida metros, Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, Nashville, Phoenix, Los Angeles) may not be as walkable as desired because they were largely developed with the advent of the automobile.
But in many cases (particularly and especially in the cases of Sun Belt powerhouse metro regions like Houston, Los Angeles, Dallas, Phoenix, the Florida metros, and Atlanta), it was not just the advent of the automobile that that fostered the sprawling development patterns of Sun Belt metros... It was the advent of airplane travel that played a leading role (if not the leading role) in the robust economic development of basically all of the aforementioned Sun Belt metros.
The advent of the automobile fostered the sprawling development patterns of Sun Belt metros on the ground, but it was the advent of airplane travel that enabled Sun Belt metro regions to prosper and grow economically during the late 20th and very-early 21st centuries.
Air travel has made it possible to travel between the established metros of the Northeast and the previously-isolated less-established metros of the Sun Belt and the West within a matter of a few hours instead of days (or even weeks or months) like before in the earliest parts of the nation's history.
Air travel has also connected the once-provincial parts of the Sun Belt with the rest of the planet (Europe, Asia, Latin America, Africa), bolstering economic development across the entire Sun Belt region.
The automobile enabled a major metro Sun Belt region like Atlanta to grow in a sprawling fashion... But it was the airplane (and Atlanta's growth into a major hub of continental, hemispherical and international air travel) that appears to have enabled Atlanta to grow into a business, entertainment and cultural capital of international importance in the first place.
Without air travel and/or the massive air travel facility at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport, Atlanta most likely truly would still be "a provincial capital of little importance outside of the immediate region" as you stated in your analysis.
Without air travel and even without the investments in air travel infrastructure during the air jet travel age, Atlanta most likely would look like something closer to a smaller more provincial metro like Birmingham (if Atlanta was lucky) than the large major metro of international importance that it has become with the investments in and presence of a massive piece of transportation infrastructure and air travel facility like Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport.
In Atlanta's case the airplane picked up right where the train left off. Atlanta owes its very existence to the train and its position at the southern tip of the Appalachians with access up the east coast, and to the west of the mountains to the Midwest as well as being centrally located withiin the southeast. The same reasoning the airport is also ideally located.
Don't miss my point about AC as well. Air Conditioning made summers bearable all across the sunbelt. Texas cities are even worse in the summer than Atlanta. It really has made a huge difference that people often overlook when considering the "whys" of the boom in the sunbelt.
I understand what you are saying. The sunbelt cities get criticized for not being walkable but they by and large developed with the advent of the automobile. We get slammed because we weren't developed when walking and horsepower were the main means of getting around which gave rise to these fantastic walkable neighborhoods everyone is currently clamoring for (even if they were once dirty, polluted, crammed spaces without the current charm). Even the advent of mass transit changed developmental patterns as 'streetcar suburbs' developed.
So yes, I don't like that much of Atlanta developed on dependence of the automobile and the much dreaded but inevitable 'sprawl' happened. But without the advent of the automobile (and its equally important sister invention... AC) would Atlanta be what it is otherwise? I say still a provincial capital of little importance outside the immediate region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
In Atlanta's case the airplane picked up right where the train left off. Atlanta owes its very existence to the train and its position at the southern tip of the Appalachians with access up the east coast, and to the west of the mountains to the Midwest as well as being centrally located withiin the southeast. The same reasoning the airport is also ideally located.
Don't miss my point about AC as well. Air Conditioning made summers bearable all across the sunbelt. Texas cities are even worse in the summer than Atlanta. It really has made a huge difference that people often overlook.
It's Atlanta's elevation that helps make it's Summers less intense than other southern cities summers.
If only there were some way to directly charge users of critical interchanges every time they used it instead of hoping that politicians finally notice it needs more tax dollars. That way critical highly used infrastructure would have dedicated money to maintain it. We could call it a "toll".
A bit concerned about these stacks of bridges and overpasses. They look like they've seen better days. The ramp that takes you from I-285 East to I-85 North has a huge chunk that fell onto the embankment where the wall used to be and has been replaced by a temporary barrier. Everytime I see those bridges fully loaded with cars stuck in traffic sitting atop them I can't help but wonder how much longer those bridges are going to last. I believe they are at, or very close to their lifespans ontop of which handling over double the traffic they were originally intended to handle.
I am wondering, if / when it comes time to replace them, what they will replace them with and how they will do it given the limited space.
Believe it or not, these ramp issues is not Isolated to Spaghetti Junction. There is an area on 285 West/North before Washington Rd. after you pass Old Nat I ride over every day heading to work that has been chipping away and seems to be dividing as well. If I'm not mistaken it was last year or the year before last it divided so bad cars were hitting it and busting out several Tires on the Expressway. They seem to have patched it up a bit but the problem still remains on these old over passes. I think its a major concern on the interchanges and bridges around the metro but believe me nothing will be done until something really bad happens sorry to say.
A bit concerned about these stacks of bridges and overpasses. They look like they've seen better days. The ramp that takes you from I-285 East to I-85 North has a huge chunk that fell onto the embankment where the wall used to be and has been replaced by a temporary barrier. Everytime I see those bridges fully loaded with cars stuck in traffic sitting atop them I can't help but wonder how much longer those bridges are going to last. I believe they are at, or very close to their lifespans ontop of which handling over double the traffic they were originally intended to handle.
I am wondering, if / when it comes time to replace them, what they will replace them with and how they will do it given the limited space.
Like other posters have noted, the time to replace the ramps (including the flyover ramps) and pavement of the I-85/I-285 Northeast Tom Moreland Interchange a.k.a. "Spaghetti Junction" is quickly drawing near.
(Like other posters have noted, if I recall correctly, I think that Spaghetti Junction as we know it today was constructed/reconstructed from 1983-1987 out of a simple cloverleaf interchange that served the junction of Interstates 85 and 285 when they were both only two lanes in each direction from about circa 1958-1960 until about 1983.)
Like other posters have noted, the lifespan of the interchange (including and particularly the flyover ramps) was intended to be about 30 years or so. But the limited and finite budget of an agency like GDOT (the Georgia Department of Transportation) means that replacement of the interchange is not likely to come until about the 35-40 year range or later.
When the Spaghetti Junction interchange is replaced, it is likely to be replaced with wider transition ramps (particularly on the flyovers) that are likely to be three lanes in width as opposed to the current two-lane wide ramps. The ramps are also likely to be given wider emergency shoulders after they are eventually replaced.
When the issue of Spaghetti Junction has come up before, the subject of overdependence on a major interchange like Spaghetti Junction, major roads like I-85 and I-285, and the road network as a whole have also been raised.
During its existence, Spaghetti Junction as well as the two major superhighways that it interchanges (Interstates 85 and 285) has proven to a massive economic generator for the North metro Atlanta region.
Spaghetti Junction has helped to generate much economic growth and development along the I-85 Northeast and I-285 Top End Perimeter corridors since being completed in 1987.
But the massive economic growth and the explosive population and developmental growth that the interchange has created has also generated a massive amount of traffic congestion from both commuter and service traffic alike.
I think that the interchange potentially may be handling 1.5 to 2 times the amount of traffic that it was designed to handle because of the significantly better-than-expected economic and population growth in the Atlanta region, particularly during the decade of the 1990's.
The severe traffic congestion that plagues Spaghetti Junction, the top half of the I-285 Perimeter, and the I-85 Northeast corridor also underscores the glaring lack of and increasingly pressing need for a viable high-capacity mass transit alternative to traveling on the I-285 Top End Perimeter and I-85 Northeast roadways in a large major metropolitan region of nearly 7 million residents.
I believe Spaghetti Junctions life expectancy is 30 years.
Starting from the mid 80's to early 90's when it was built, it is approaching its maximum life expectancy and possibly breaching it given its handling much more traffic than it was intended to.
Although there are much older bridges in the city, you have to consider Spaghetti Junction handles alot more stress than either interchange of I-20/I-285 east or west which are not stacks built several feet into the air but are mostly ground embankments and standard overpasses.
Now that you've brought it up, it is a little worrisome.
So make sure to contact GDOT & make sure they're inspecting them regularly.
They should be included in the deficient bridges assessment (American Civil Engineers) done every 5-10 years.
It is the most beautiful of its type that I have seen & I lived in So. California which has over 30 interchanges of this type, which are way older than ours. It's pure in it's near perfect symmetry, and the curvaceous supports are elegant & gorgeous.
But then again, theirs are more robust due to the seismic requirements.
They need to remove the algae and staining from all of our freeways' barriers or paint them, because when they were new and white in color in the early 90s, it was fabulous!
Spaghetti Junction's flyovers are all hollow box girders that very lightweight for their size.
But with so few supports for such fully-loaded flyovers, any failure won't turn out well.
Now that you've brought it up, it is a little worrisome.
So make sure to contact GDOT & make sure they're inspecting them regularly.
They should be included in the deficient bridges assessment (American Civil Engineers) done every 5-10 years.
It is the most beautiful of its type that I have seen & I lived in So. California which has over 30 interchanges of this type, which are way older than ours. It's pure in it's near perfect symmetry, and the curvaceous supports are elegant & gorgeous.
But then again, theirs are more robust due to the seismic requirements.
They need to remove the algae and staining from all of our freeways' barriers or paint them, because when they were new and white in color in the early 90s, it was fabulous!
Spaghetti Junction's flyovers are all hollow box girders that very lightweight for their size.
But with so few supports for such fully-loaded flyovers, any failure won't turn out well.
If I'm not mistaken I believe Spaghetti Junction's engineering was based off the stacks seen in California, probably not as overly engineered as those stacks are which have to withstand earthquakes (and occasionally still fail to). I'm not well versed in many of the stacks over in LA or San Francisco. Some of them seemed fairly new... fairly... others looked severely under planned and questionably interstate grade. Alot of California freeways are also state maintained routes so not sure if federal funding went into their designs. Actually some of their state routes would be impossible to distinguish from an actual interstate. Others seem very old and more like the parkways found in New England.
This is all opinion based but when it comes to Stacks I think Texas pretty much owns the book as just about every single freeway to freeway and sometimes even surface roads has a flyover that makes it seem like traffic is literally coming out of the sky. I happen to live near one currently for a toll road. They're pretty impressive stuff, they build them over access roads and braided ramps too but I fear the day Texas may have to rebuild these as well. Actually I question if they will feasibly be able to in another 40ish years if the oil market isn't as hot as it currently is.
Sometimes I can't help but wonder what Atlanta would be like if we had more stacks and a more redundant freeway network with Stacks everywhere like seen in DFW or Houston but I actually find that despite by ranking Texas has the best infrastructure in the nation..Georgia's roads are actual not that bad. Infact I find them alot more refreshing given the hills, TREES, and how much better they conform to the terrain rather than completely aniahlating it. Also much more diverse interchanges instead of every single exit being to an access road. Also I think I like Georgia's choice of pavement (black and I believe granite)
Last edited by Need4Camaro; 01-16-2019 at 08:36 AM..
Now that you've brought it up, it is a little worrisome.
So make sure to contact GDOT & make sure they're inspecting them regularly.
They should be included in the deficient bridges assessment (American Civil Engineers) done every 5-10 years.
It is the most beautiful of its type that I have seen & I lived in So. California which has over 30 interchanges of this type, which are way older than ours. It's pure in it's near perfect symmetry, and the curvaceous supports are elegant & gorgeous.
But then again, theirs are more robust due to the seismic requirements.
They need to remove the algae and staining from all of our freeways' barriers or paint them, because when they were new and white in color in the early 90s, it was fabulous!
Spaghetti Junction's flyovers are all hollow box girders that very lightweight for their size.
But with so few supports for such fully-loaded flyovers, any failure won't turn out well.
Agreed!!
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