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So, just to be clear, based what you have said, most of you guys think that a High School AP Economics teacher with a Doctorate Degree in Economics from Emory teaching in a lower performing school with 10 years of teaching experience should make the same or less than a Economics teacher with a Bachelor's Degree in History teaching in an established, high performing school with less than 5 years of teaching experience?
Just asking...
First off, your statement has little merit, because it's highly doubtful that you'd ever see someone with a doctorate in Economics from Emory teaching AP Econ in a low-performing high school. That aside, if there was one, he should be paid more because he's able to provide more value to the organization- not because he has a piece of paper hanging on the wall- that's how it works in the private sector, and that's how it should work in the public sector too.
If he's able to turn out high-performing students, he should get a higher salary- not because he has the degree, but because he's able to use that degree to accomplish something.
You could also change the example to say a person who has a PhD from Trinity Southern teaching at a Cobb County school vs. your avg BS holding UGA grad in the same school. Does the person from UGA deserve to make less b/c they didn't go buy another sheet of paper on the wall? Do you want your tax dollars to go toward buying diplomas or actual teaching ability? I'm very against granting raises simply based on tenure within primary education. The bar's just not high enough and there's not enough added value after a few years. The person doing the same job as me making 30-40% more b/c they were able to sit in the same job longer isn't an accomplishment.
I'd just like to add that the pay for diplomas extends beyond teachers. My dad's driving school buses for Gwinnett right now(semi-retired in '05 but trying to avoid buying private health insurance till they are Medicare qualified) and he gets paid extra b/c he has two MS's (GT CS and UGA Org Chem). I do find it funny he's as conservative as people come and abhors all forms of tax but is completely fine w/ taking part in government largesse.
BTW, I found some irony in Cityrover's statement about no easy masters degrees given the Google Ad Sense words showing easy online master's degrees for eduction ont he bottom of the page.
So are you saying that you think that teachers who work in the most impoverished, drug-infested communities or communities that have little to no parental education and support (and perform relatively poorly as a result) should make less than teachers in affluent, educated communities with strong parental support and resources (and perform highly as a result)?
Or are you saying that it is based on the the individual schools/communities? For example, are you saying that teachers that raise performance from, say level 2 to 5 (out of 10) should make more than teachers that raise performance from 9 to 10 (out of 10)?
I could understand the latter, but not the former. After all, isn't it more hard work to turn a "bad" school around than to maintain already high performance at a "good" school?
Quote:
Originally Posted by equinox63
So, just to be clear, based what you have said, most of you guys think that a High School AP Economics teacher with a Doctorate Degree in Economics from Emory teaching in a lower performing school with 10 years of teaching experience should make the same or less than a Economics teacher with a Bachelor's Degree in History teaching in an established, high performing school with less than 5 years of teaching experience?
Just asking...
equinox63--
Just want to say...you are spot on with your comments and you are supported.
We as society have to wonder why we have the issues with education that we do when certain people have such terrible and condescending views of educators and the education profession.
Just want to say...you are spot on with your comments and you are supported.
We as society have to wonder why we have the issues with education that we do when certain people have such terrible and condescending views of educators and the education profession.
I don't have a condescending view of educators and/or the education profession at all- I have condescending views of people who think they deserve more $$ just because of a piece of paper.
In fact, I teach at one of the local technical colleges (I think that helps establish my position on educators a bit, no?), and here's something that illustrates the foolishness of this point. I've got a bachelor's degree in construction management and over 20 years of experience in the industry. This allows me to teach as an adjunct, but if I want to teach there full-time, I need to have a masters. They're currently interviewing for full-time instructors, and many of the candidates they're getting are useless- yes, they have the masters degree, but they've got little to no real-world experience. So, the school will end up hiring one of them, and they won't get the best possible teacher they can find- but they'll be able to check the little box next to "possesses masters degree" on the form.......
Yeah, because that's all it is (said the lady with the masters in statistics), just a stupid piece of paper with some stupid ink on it. There's absolutely nothing behind it...no research, no written exam, no oral exam....nuthin.
Yep, you took high school math? You can do my job. In fact, please go provide the study design, statistical analysis plan, and sample size analysis for a survey of the state of Georgia that will help the State Dept of Health determine the malaria prevalence of the state. I'll need you to design the data collection tools, the data base, and come up with a plan for data management, too.
Yeah, because that's all it is (said the lady with the masters in statistics), just a stupid piece of paper with some stupid ink on it. There's absolutely nothing behind it...no research, no written exam, no oral exam....nuthin.
Yep, you took high school math? You can do my job. In fact, please go provide the study design, statistical analysis plan, and sample size analysis for a survey of the state of Georgia that will help the State Dept of Health determine the malaria prevalence of the state. I'll need you to design the data collection tools, the data base, and come up with a plan for data management, too.
I'm sorry- and when did we go from talking about teachers to talking to government researchers, exactly? And when did a teacher have to do any of the things you described in your second paragraph?
I'll say it again- IF getting that degree will result in a better outcome, and that outcome can be demostrated through evidence, then yes- that person deserves an increase in pay. IF, however it's a simple "ohh, you got your masters- check the box- you get a raise", I don't agree with it. It doesn't work that way in the private sector, so why does it work that way in the public sector?
I'm sorry- and when did we go from talking about teachers to talking to government researchers, exactly? And when did a teacher have to do any of the things you described in your second paragraph?
I'll say it again- IF getting that degree will result in a better outcome, and that outcome can be demostrated through evidence, then yes- that person deserves an increase in pay. IF, however it's a simple "ohh, you got your masters- check the box- you get a raise", I don't agree with it. It doesn't work that way in the private sector, so why does it work that way in the public sector?
We were talking about the "worthlessness" of a masters degree.
And I just wanted to make a point.
Perhaps the system is flawed, but I personally know a teacher with an MFA and I can say that she DOES have a lot to offer the kids, in the way of Art Theory, etc, and Art History, than someone with a BS in Ed with a focus in Art.
It's way too easy to dump on that stupid piece of paper.
BTW - it DOES work that way in the private sector...at least in big business. Before I went into government research I worked in pharmaceutical research. They would never hire anyone with anything less than a masters.
But perhaps you're talking small business? But even then...my brother's dental clinic (the one he owns) won't hire a hygeniest without a stupid piece of paper (hey, liability, right?) even though when my Dad opened the clinic in 1965 he hired high school grads and taught them how to be a hygenist.
Times are a changin and liability means you better have the highest educated folks who have learned the newest of the new cutting edge skills.
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plessthanpointohfive
"just because of a piece of paper."
Yeah, because that's all it is (said the lady with the masters in statistics), just a stupid piece of paper with some stupid ink on it. There's absolutely nothing behind it...no research, no written exam, no oral exam....nuthin.
With all due respect, academic research and ivory tower class or labwork really isn't the same as experience in the field, at least for many disciplines.
I've worked with two folks who have had masters degrees in CompSci, for example, and they certainly knew more about certain subject areas than I did with my humble BSCS, but when it came down to designing a real-world solution, one of them was *terrible*. The other was quite good, but he also had a lot more hands-on experience to back up his degree.
Masters degrees do command some respect in my eyes, but there are limits; the degree by itself indicates a high level of commitment and perhaps also a certain amount of specialized expertise in a chosen subject area, but often in the real world a person with general hands-on experience is a more useful.
Of course, I'm not talking about teaching either, which I think also involves various skills in organization and interpersonal communication which don't always come along with the degree. Some of that might be innate ability rather than learned.
To bring this back to a teaching context ... some of the best CompSci teachers I had in college were not tenured professors at all, but rather associate professors who had decades of hard experience writing code for IBM and other companies, and who were also rather good at dealing with people.
A couple of the actual professors were rather crappy teachers. Their knowledge was dated, and they didn't have a lot of practical experience in some cases. One of them was a music prof who taught programming courses as a sideline! He had a PhD, sure, but not in the subject area in question.
Performance measurement for teachers is probably a very tricky proposition, since all students are not created equal, and some student receive a lot of support at home while other equally talented students might receive none, and those external factors are a rather large variable I'm sure...
Perhaps the system is flawed, but I personally know a teacher with an MFA and I can say that she DOES have a lot to offer the kids, in the way of Art Theory, etc, and Art History, than someone with a BS in Ed with a focus in Art.
And IF she's able to convey that wealth of info to a bunch of high schools kids in between trying to prep them for the standardized tests that they spend the whole year preparing for, and IF it's able to produce a higher quality student, then she should be paid more.
The flaw in the system is that with the proliferation of online degrees in the past decade or so, it's far easier to get a degree, and for many, the sole reason for getting it is so they can check the box and get an extra few thousand a year- they're not doing it because they want to better themselves, or because they want to impart more knowledge to the kids. I'm not saying that's the case for every teacher, but it's certainly the case for many.
Look at my case- if I decided I truly wanted to teach full-time, I'd go and enroll in one of the online masters programs, do the bare minimum required to get the degree, and "poof"- I'm suddenly qualified for the position. Going through that process will not make me a better teacher, and isn't likely to impart me with any wisdom I don't already have, but it "checks the box".
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