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Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,343 posts, read 54,462,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit
You need to get very 'creative', as USA states increasingly destroy historical records after 10 yrs.
Each state has ways to do this, but most are very painful and will require a physical inspection of vehicle (in that state) to validate VIN.
Years ago I had trouble titling/registering a new Norton motorcycle in NJ using the manufacturer's certificate of origin, they wanted VIN verification. The DMV accepted a pencil rubbing of the VIN right off the bike. Perhaps something like that would be acceptable.
Years ago I had trouble titling/registering a new Norton motorcycle in NJ using the manufacturer's certificate of origin, they wanted VIN verification. The DMV accepted a pencil rubbing of the VIN right off the bike. Perhaps something like that would be acceptable.
the key to your situation with that Norton was "Years ago", when Federal mandates to the states of what constitutes a legal title trail process were quite different than they are today. Indeed, the Feds have really put the screws to the states in an effort to eliminate phony car titles involved with stolen vehicles.
"years ago", when I was still active in the motorcycle biz, HD bikes coming out of CA had such a high percentage of stolen bikes that CA would not process a title application without the motor number on the crankcase rubbing. At the time, HD didn't have a frame VIN, the crankcases were the only ID number on the bike for title purposes. It was not uncommon for thieves to restamp the motor number in the soft alloy case and use the title from a legitimate bike to sell the stolen bike. But replicating original HD stampings was difficult to do, and the state caught on to using the pencil rubbing as part of the inspection for a title application. They could compare the original pencil rubbing on file to the new app submitted, and they caught a fair number of phony bike title applications this way. The big deal here was that the bikes were stolen in CA and then resold into other states … I was in Colorado and we had a lot of these bikes coming here. Folk would buy a bike in good faith with the CA title and a Bill of Sale and when Colorado DMV processed the title, it would come back from CA as a stolen bike. The seller, of course, was long gone with the cash and disappeared and the buyer was stuck without the money and the bike. Fortunately for me, I never dealt in HD's … but buddies in the biz did and a couple of them got burned on these deals.
In the years since, the VIN numbering system has been standardized and required on the chassis/frame of motor vehicles, and boats, and UTV's. All part of the Fed mandate to standardize titles between all the motor vehicle manufacturers. Hence the states now requiring a physical Motor Vehicle Inspection report on their forms and signed off by an authorized inspector (typically, any law enforcement officer, sheriff's deputy, PD officer, etc).
Personally, I've handled ownership title trails on collector cars and bikes from the 20's through the 1960's, and "barn find" vehicles of those vintages where the trail is impossible to verify and the owners have long since passed on can be problematic. The "best" way we've ever found in Colorado and Wyoming to get a valid title has been the "bonded title" process, which takes months to do and posting a bond for the appraised value of the vehicle. A couple of times, our diligent research turned up somebody who had an ownership interest in a vehicle but didn't know they had it but were happy to discover their ownership. Generally, we were able to work out the details where legal title was established and the vehicle sold to my client for a fair price. One notable time we couldn't complete a deal: we found an owner of a 1964 356 Carrera Porsche who knew the value of the car even in it's "barn find" condition. He wanted way more money for the car than my client believed justified and so the car was sold via Hemmings to somebody else. I got paid for my consulting and research for the title and my client got nothing out of the deal except the expenses.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,343 posts, read 54,462,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
the key to your situation with that Norton was "Years ago", when Federal mandates to the states of what constitutes a legal title trail process were quite different than they are today. Indeed, the Feds have really put the screws to the states in an effort to eliminate phony car titles involved with stolen vehicles.
"years ago", when I was still active in the motorcycle biz, HD bikes coming out of CA had such a high percentage of stolen bikes that CA would not process a title application without the motor number on the crankcase rubbing. At the time, HD didn't have a frame VIN, the crankcases were the only ID number on the bike for title purposes. It was not uncommon for thieves to restamp the motor number in the soft alloy case and use the title from a legitimate bike to sell the stolen bike. But replicating original HD stampings was difficult to do, and the state caught on to using the pencil rubbing as part of the inspection for a title application. They could compare the original pencil rubbing on file to the new app submitted, and they caught a fair number of phony bike title applications this way. The big deal here was that the bikes were stolen in CA and then resold into other states … I was in Colorado and we had a lot of these bikes coming here. Folk would buy a bike in good faith with the CA title and a Bill of Sale and when Colorado DMV processed the title, it would come back from CA as a stolen bike. The seller, of course, was long gone with the cash and disappeared and the buyer was stuck without the money and the bike. Fortunately for me, I never dealt in HD's … but buddies in the biz did and a couple of them got burned on these deals.
In the years since, the VIN numbering system has been standardized and required on the chassis/frame of motor vehicles, and boats, and UTV's. All part of the Fed mandate to standardize titles between all the motor vehicle manufacturers. Hence the states now requiring a physical Motor Vehicle Inspection report on their forms and signed off by an authorized inspector (typically, any law enforcement officer, sheriff's deputy, PD officer, etc).
Personally, I've handled ownership title trails on collector cars and bikes from the 20's through the 1960's, and "barn find" vehicles of those vintages where the trail is impossible to verify and the owners have long since passed on can be problematic. The "best" way we've ever found in Colorado and Wyoming to get a valid title has been the "bonded title" process, which takes months to do and posting a bond for the appraised value of the vehicle. A couple of times, our diligent research turned up somebody who had an ownership interest in a vehicle but didn't know they had it but were happy to discover their ownership. Generally, we were able to work out the details where legal title was established and the vehicle sold to my client for a fair price. One notable time we couldn't complete a deal: we found an owner of a 1964 356 Carrera Porsche who knew the value of the car even in it's "barn find" condition. He wanted way more money for the car than my client believed justified and so the car was sold via Hemmings to somebody else. I got paid for my consulting and research for the title and my client got nothing out of the deal except the expenses.
No doubt, that was 1970, and back in the days of privately owned DMV agencies before the system was computerized. It seemed they could and did demand whatever documentation they wanted and it might well depend on what agent you happened to deal with. I forget the details but IIRC I had to make at least three visits to the agency to finally get a title which seemed a real PITA for a new machine.
There is no such thing as a "US car title" - vehicles are registered and titled with each state, not at any national or federal level. (Just making sure - your post is ambiguous.)
The car was last titled in New York State, so that's where you have to go to find and get a copy of the title. Since you have the VIN and last owner identification, it should be possible. Maybe not easy, but possible.
Good luck. I've dealt with enough custom/collector vehicles and international sales to know that it's a minefield of rules and demands, and sometimes you simply can't register certain vehicles from certain sale countries in others.
Not going to be easy since the owner died... it has to go through probate. Why did you buy the car without a title?
No doubt, that was 1970, and back in the days of privately owned DMV agencies before the system was computerized.
When were US DMVs ever 'privately owned'?
This thread does raise the idea that there must be many thousands of "orphaned" cars out there, with their title chain irrevocably broken through a succession of weak transactions. (And I mean just desirable, collector, investment cars, not commuter and family cars.)
DMV's for car titles are state agencies, but due to the myriad complexities of dealing with them, there are "privately owned" agencies that specialize in assisting with the legal paperwork process for a fee. Some states have more of these than others, outfits such as "https://www.dmv.com/about".
This thread does raise the idea that there must be many thousands of "orphaned" cars out there, with their title chain irrevocably broken through a succession of weak transactions. (And I mean just desirable, collector, investment cars, not commuter and family cars.)
As the years go by, there are fewer and fewer "barn finds" or orphaned cars of exceptional value. Car collector folk have been bird dogging and locating these cars and parts for decades. The likelihood of coming across an unknown collection today is pretty slim … even the collections accumulated by some car dealers or other folk in the industry who just parked cars and forgot about them aren't a secret. It all comes down to when a decision is made to cash them out when the cars will hit the market.
In the USA, WW2 "scrap metal" drives took many cars & motorcycles which would otherwise be collectable items today to be recycled. As well, a fair number of cars were scrapped out when they were just "old cars" of little value in the 1950's … a neighbor whose Dad had a wrecking yard back in that era tells me that some of the hardest work he ever did was tearing down some of the high end cars of the prior years. He mentioned Caddy's, Packard's, Lincoln's, and a few bespoke euro cars as being made of better materials than the lower cost commuter/family type cars of those years. In run-down condition, they weren't worth much back in those days.
As I've mentioned, there are ways to get a clear title to some of those "finds" which don't have a title trail and living owners … "bonded" titles have been the best path for me and my clients.
Your reply makes it impossible to quote directly - please split quotes instead of writing inside them.
That there are commercial firms that offer DMV services - AAA does so in many states - is not the same thing as what's referenced above, that DMVs were somehow private agencies at any time. Vehicle registration has been a state function in all states for at least 100 years (it was fragmented by cities and counties in the earliest days).
There were also states that had incredibly lax requirements - I think it was Alabama that was infamous for titles by mail with token documentation and a check. But again, that has nothing to do with "private DMV services."
As the years go by, there are fewer and fewer "barn finds" or orphaned cars of exceptional value. Car collector folk have been bird dogging and locating these cars and parts for decades.
I point to you the 1970s Vette that's the subject here. It's not just antique barn finds but relatively recent cars that have been subjected to one or more sloppy, incompletely documented sales.
I point to you the 1970s Vette that's the subject here. It's not just antique barn finds but relatively recent cars that have been subjected to one or more sloppy, incompletely documented sales.
An example of one car doesn't make for such a huge problem as you suggest exists.
Why Not? because ever since the titling process got more consistent per USA fed direction and with computerization of the process and recording, title transfers of "relatively recent" cars have been pretty well cleaned up.
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