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airlines have resorted to fees because by doing so they can get a lower base fare price, which moves them up to the top of the list on websites that list fares by base fare price. Flying has become extremely cheap compared to what it used to be. That is why air travelers put up with the hassle (not to mention the time saved on long distance travel).
pilot shortages are self-correcting. As soon as college kids realize they can move right into the right seat of an regional airliner after only a short period of training and then stay there for decades making less than a mcdonalds employee, they will flock into aviation and then quit and grow up.
There will be no pilot shortage. This lie has been spread around for years, propagated by those who would benefit from a large pilot oversupply: The airlines and their industry associations, as it keeps wages and benefits down, and schools/universities, to keep enrollment up. Despite work conditions and pay sinking lower and lower, there are still more pilots then there are positions. There are still pilots on furlough from American from the 9/11 furloughs! People trip over themselves to fly for a job, even if that job pays so low you need to live on ramen and sleep in the airport parking lot in a van.
Edit: And just recently found out Comair, who used to be THE regional carrier for Delta, is now shutting down at the end of Sept. That will put even more pilots out on the street. Who now have to start all over, at the very bottom of the pay and seniority scale at their new job, if they find one. Some of those people spent their entire professional career there and now will lose it all. The smart ones will leave flying behind them. And cabotage comes up periodically as well. Eventually it will fall, and then you will see pilots competing on wage scales with Chinese pilots. Hint: They don't make squat.
I work for a commuter airline, coming up on 7 years.
As far as the pilot shortage, keep in mind there is now a perfect storm that hasn't existed before. Not only will the age 65 rule come due in December, there will be a significant amount of changes coming in the future affecting supply. Not that I believe the hype but there might be something to it this time. A few years ago regional airlines were offering large (for them) bonuses of roughly $5k to come to class, and were hiring quite a few lower time folks.
The ATP rule: 1500 hours required now for 121 airlines, used to be a commercial multi which could go as low as roughly 190-200 hours depending on the school (141 vs 61). Going to ATP or MAPD used to give folks a quick way in with a couple hundred hours and an RJ course - that will no longer be the case. Not only that but the courses have significantly increased in cost, with low pay still existing at the beginning of the career.
Flight Time / Duty Time regs (FTDT): Significant changes in scheduling will increase the amount of pilots required at the commuter level and to some regard at the major level.
As far a pay goes, in my 5th year I made over 90k and 6th year made over 100k. Had I been an FO the pay would have been around 60k both years. This is flying a small commuter aircraft. I'd like to know what the definition of "McDonald's" wages is. Maybe I should go flip burgers if I can make 6 figures there, would be a lot less stressful! Plus I had a great health plan $15 co-pays etc for $100/month. 8% 401k match. Roughly 5 weeks vacation a year plus normal time off averaging 15 days off a month. I dunno it's still a pretty decent job. Comair got screwed we all know that. Hopefully those guys end up in a good place. Spirit and jetBlue are hiring quite a few folks.
I think perhaps what Op isn't seeing is that the military will again be reduced ;again releasing large number of high hours military multi engined pilots as well as heli pilots.That at a time when airlines are cutting flights.I was just discussing this with a friend who just retired from being a airline captain with a Continental.
Also wanted to add foreign pilots earn about 50% more than their US counterparts. The US is one of the lowest paying countries as far as pilots go. If cabotage were to be allowed you might see competition heat up for the pilots here in the US. Also most foreign airlines are government subsidized.
Also wanted to add foreign pilots earn about 50% more than their US counterparts. The US is one of the lowest paying countries as far as pilots go. If cabotage were to be allowed you might see competition heat up for the pilots here in the US. Also most foreign airlines are government subsidized.
You really can't compare domestic pilot compensation to foreign pilot compensation without explaining the fundemental difference between how they are paid. Many foreign airlines pay their pilots on a traditional worker compensation schedules (this is how we are paid).
We have a "sign in time" which is when flight operation tells us to report to work so we can do what we have to do prior to departure. In some positions it's 1/2 hour prior, others it can be 1.5 hrs prior. That is the time we are basically Punching the Clock to start work.
We have the "sign out time" whcih is the time that we spend post flight to complete whatever we need completed from paperwork to reports to whatever. That can be anywhere from 15 minutes to several hours depending on circumstances. That is the time we are basically Punching Out from work.
All the time in between the start and end time is paid time. We don;t have door close, door open, pushback, at gate, ..... It's the time we punched in to when we punch out.
Another item is the layover. We are compensated for the layovers if we are not free to do as we please. So if the time between leaving work and reporting back on a layover is compensated at a set rate. Thats why I can have a 1 hour pre departure report, 10 hour flight, 12 hour layover, 2 hour weather delay, 10 hour return flight, 1 hour post flight admin work and get paid for a total of 36 hours. Or I may have a 30 hour lay over where the first 12 hours are at regular pay and the next 12 at half pay and 6 hours at no pay. (the first 12 hours I am not free to do as I want since it is mandated rest time, so full pay. the second 12 hours I am free to do as I like but with restrictions which could limit my activities to the hotel or the airport, so half pay. The next 6 are really first or last and those are not restricted and I can sightsee, go where i want, pretty much do as I please with no restrictions so long as I obey the 24 pre flight regulations and rules, I don't get paid for that unless built into the contract)
Now, I know not all foriegn airlines are the same, but you will find the general rule is they are paid less per hour than a US carrier, but they are compensated for time spent at/for work, not just for piloting.
You really can't compare domestic pilot compensation to foreign pilot compensation without explaining the fundemental difference between how they are paid. Many foreign airlines pay their pilots on a traditional worker compensation schedules (this is how we are paid).
Buddy told me what he made last year, I told him what I made last year, same plane, he made 50% more, it's not rocket science.
As far a pay goes, in my 5th year I made over 90k and 6th year made over 100k. Had I been an FO the pay would have been around 60k both years. This is flying a small commuter aircraft. I'd like to know what the definition of "McDonald's" wages is. Maybe I should go flip burgers if I can make 6 figures there, would be a lot less stressful! Plus I had a great health plan $15 co-pays etc for $100/month. 8% 401k match. Roughly 5 weeks vacation a year plus normal time off averaging 15 days off a month. I dunno it's still a pretty decent job. Comair got screwed we all know that. Hopefully those guys end up in a good place. Spirit and jetBlue are hiring quite a few folks.
With all due respect, your dismissal of the Comair case study is predictable, but it is ill-fated. Furthermore, the sustainment of your six figure gross is also overstated. For full disclosure, so is my compensation as a military officer with a much shorter shelf life, or an 18 year old help-hand at the offshore rig. The bottom line is that as far as Comair is concerned, that could have easily been you. The only reason one would state the value of an above median wage at a regional airline is if one were planning to stick around. Bad move IMO.
As to your question regarding the definition of a McDonalds wage, I'll humor you for the benefit of the peanut gallery.The difference between you and the McDonalds wage earner is that he can walk over to the Wendy's and command his wage whereas you are up the creek. 90k to 18K hurts a whole lot more than 30k to ....ohhh that's right, 30k. Lateral income portability is a fact of life for those who recognize they cannot work forever, but it eludes the vast majority of airline pilots. Actually, I don't think it eludes them, they just choose to dismiss it.
I'll tell you the only way you can actually afford to dismiss that particular idiosyncrasy of the labor dynamics of airline pilot work is if you have an out. Many people know about them: Career military with a retirement check backing their income stream. Others have Air Force Reserve/Air National Guard participation and MLOA (mil leave of absence) to leverage themselves with and get on long term orders thus avoiding the "indignity" of low seniority years and the accompanying schedule. Others still, have bankrolling wives a.k.a. they are secondary bread winners. Then a last subset is the career changer with personal savings subsidizing their employment.
All in all the key theme is that none of these types are actually paying the bills with that "90K", because they recognize the oilfield-work-style volatility of said above median wage. Those who DO bank on that figure as primary source of income are merely playing the odds that their run won't crack the bottom of the hull. That's fine when you're one of the aforementioned, but when you're not? Oh brother, ever heard of Optimism bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia??? I'm special, I'm not vulnerable to it, I know things others don't, Et al ad nauseam.
The fact remains that the choice to be a career regional guy is foolish, this is not me (I'm a military pilot who has opted out of pursuing airline work) this is your peers at mainline saying it. This is them saying it while they sit on long term orders while holding low seniority numbers at mainline places like Delta, United-Conti and UPS. They'll never be crass enough to say it in front of civi-only guys, but among the bros at the squadron, yeah they know the score. I'm airing their dirty laundry to bring some perspective for the folks with half a penny and a dream as their only out. I love flying as much as the next guy, but sometimes the best hand is recognizing when to fold. Airline flying doesnt have ownership over "flying" as a passion, there's many other ways to satisfy the flying bug without fracturing the home life.
As to wishing the Comair guys "a good place" I'd say the best bet for those guys is to get preferential hiring at mother Delta. My bet? They might as well play the lotto. Those guys are effed. Recency of experience, that's another gem the peanut gallery needs to understand. This needs to be pointed out blatantly. Look, not everybody is cut out for the nature of the schedule of work inherent to part 121 flying, but to cover up these gems of labor dynamics to uninformed college aged students is borderline predatory. I guarantee you if one were allowed to come in on day one of "professional pilot 101" (which sadly IS bona fide coursework at places like Embry-Riddle, and one of my alma maters, Purdue) and lay out the fundamental differences in pay structure and career [lack of] portability and retirement, they would have to consolidate the professional aviation department into another department, because the only students left would be those who never intended on paying the bills with that hobby of a job. Spouting age 65 and ATP ruling is just another gimmick to cover the fact the replacement of boomers in the airline ranks will be much more protracted than is being advertised and the LAST thing one needs to be doing is going to the hilt zero-to-hero because of the relative merits of being "hired at the beginning of a hiring wave and not the tail end".
I sincerely wish you folks fighting the good fight at the regionals tailwinds, but I think that play is a losing hand and the only way one dismisses the relative perils of that choice is because the thought of a flying office cube is marginally more appealing than selling life insurance. I have no problem with the gamble, this is America after all. But to make a play with outright inaccurate information is just shady. There's no way out but down for the regional guys. You'll lose that seniority one way or another. Either you gamble it by applying to mainline and sucking up the wage decrease and the possibility of getting furloughed during a time of low seniority, or you ride the regional gig and get left out eventually. For some, they might be young enough to restart, for most regional CAs who chose to stay put, they can't make up for their seniority list vanishing into thin air. They would be kicked off the industry with no recourse at that point, time value of money and all that jazz.
Please don't take any of this as a personal attack, I merely wish to provide a counterpoint to the youthful exuberance of some of the previous posters proclaiming milk and honey with information out of a pamphlet from the back of a Flying Magazine. Good luck to all in this journey.
Hindsight not sure what your deal is? Great for you you got a pilot slot, not everyone can be as lucky (I'm 20/400 in each eye). I know all about the military retirement my father punched out at 42(?) IIRC as a Lt. Col from the AF. Still collecting a nice pension to this day and that was over 2 decades ago.
No one wants to stay at a commuter. The last time American airlines hired a pilot I was in high school. Some have done some hiring but it's been mostly the LCC's like Spirit and jetBlue (recent pay raise has made it much more attractive) that have hired after I was qualified to apply. So I'm stuck here for now.
Delta had it out for Comair ever since they struck. Also remember the RJDC lawsuit. My company has 3 years left on the contract hopefully (I pray daily) I am gone before that. But I also don't want to make a kneejerk move to a place that isn't any better, or God forbid worse, than it is here.
Either way I've been happy here. I'm 31 and I don't plan on sticking around here if I can GTFO. Would love to. But people here don't make McDonalds wages and once you get some seniority the pay really isn't bad.
Hindsight not sure what your deal is? Great for you you got a pilot slot, not everyone can be as lucky (I'm 20/400 in each eye). I know all about the military retirement my father punched out at 42(?) IIRC as a Lt. Col from the AF. Still collecting a nice pension to this day and that was over 2 decades ago.
No one wants to stay at a commuter. The last time American airlines hired a pilot I was in high school. Some have done some hiring but it's been mostly the LCC's like Spirit and jetBlue (recent pay raise has made it much more attractive) that have hired after I was qualified to apply. So I'm stuck here for now.
Delta had it out for Comair ever since they struck. Also remember the RJDC lawsuit. My company has 3 years left on the contract hopefully (I pray daily) I am gone before that. But I also don't want to make a kneejerk move to a place that isn't any better, or God forbid worse, than it is here.
Either way I've been happy here. I'm 31 and I don't plan on sticking around here if I can GTFO. Would love to. But people here don't make McDonalds wages and once you get some seniority the pay really isn't bad.
And after I read your post again I don't think you implied you were planning on staying as a lifer. I apologize for assuming that was your direction. Either way, much luck with your career and let's hope whatever upcoming hiring does materialize moves you regional folks a bit up the chain. I do stand by my assertion that at the FO level the compensation is not right and that as your own life experience shows, the quick mobility of doing your time at the regionals then punching for the mainline is no longer a realistic model, model under which said poor FO compensation architecture was built upon. Regionals are not set up to be career places and people who do are IMO ill-advised to do so. Again much luck to you and your loved ones with this industry.
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