Afro american officials and afro american crime (Baltimore, Cumberland: sale, house)

[MrRational]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

I'll agree with you about the failed War on Drugs.
It does not make sense to me either than non-violent drug offenses should be so harshly punished.
They suck up space and resources needed for violent offenders.

Good. At least you understand the basics.

And what of the other crimes? What portion of them are related to the same illegal drug business?
I'll assert that most are... overwhelmingly most.

I'm not suggesting they be sent to EPCOT for a week instead...
but warehousing people in prisons is NOT any sort of solution.
Even if it were free.

Sadly, prison is the answer for individuals who have no desire
to function as law-abiding members of society.

Meh. Still... What portion of these crimes are related to operating the same illegal drug business?
Think about WHY the murders and assaults occur.
What is their reasoning for those crimes?

The idea that prisons will succeed in rehabing criminals
and preventing recidivism is flawed at best, a little lie we tell ourselves at worst.

Correct which is where the term "warehousing" comes into play.
It doesn't work either. It also doesn't work as a deterrent against the next crop.

The only thing worse than perpetuating the failed War On Drugs is to institute
other public policies that interfere in the orderly conduct of that illegal business.

Find a different balloon.

[Mutiny77]

Didn't know the term "Afro American" was still a thing.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by MrRational

Good. At least you understand the basics.

And what of the other crimes? What portion of them are related to the same illegal drug business?
I'll assert that most are... overwhelmingly most.

I'm not suggesting they be sent to EPCOT for a week instead...
but warehousing people in prisons is NOT any sort of solution.
Even if it were free.


Meh. Still... What portion of these crimes are related to operating the same illegal drug business?
Think about WHY the murders and assaults occur.
What is their reasoning for those crimes?


Correct which is where the term "warehousing" comes into play.
It doesn't work either. It also doesn't work as a deterrent against the next crop.

The only thing worse than perpetuating the failed War On Drugs is to institute
other public policies that interfere in the orderly conduct of that illegal business.

Find a different balloon.

The difference for me is when a neutral/self-harm behavior like drug use begins to negatively affect other people. At that point, it is a crime like any other. Whether one steals or murders over drugs, money, love, anger, whatever, the motive is secondary to the reality that their behavior has shown themselves to be a danger to society.

I agree with you again that fixing the drug problem (if such a solution is possible) would eliminate much of the criminal problem, but once a person has lowered themselves to the point where consideration of the property and safety of others is secondary, there is a right owed to the rest of us.

The non-drug using non-criminals of the world have a right to not be put at risk by those that can't control themselves. Whether prison is Paradise Island or a gulag warehouse it still accomplishes the goal of keeping the criminals and the rest of us apart.

So, build a better prison, fix the drug problem, do whatever you can to help out those heading down that ruinous path, but once others are harmed, put the criminal away. It may not break the cycle of criminality, but it is one less danger the rest of us have to deal with.

[MrRational]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

It may not break the cycle of criminality,
but (that one or 1000) is one less danger the rest of us have to deal with.

These are not new views. They're as wrong as they ever were.

[MyGoldenLife]

Originally Posted by debold4215

Are African American politicians really effective in reducing Afro American crime ? To me they don't seem to be. If you look at the statistics for how long African Americans are incarcerated for horrendous crimes you will be shocked.

Good question.

Are White politicians really effective in reducing White crime? To me they don't seem to be. If you look at the statistics for how long Whites are incarcerate for horrendous crimes you will be shocked.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by MrRational

These are not new views. They're as wrong as they ever were.

Lol, I think both of us are pretty sure we are right, debates aren't about asserting one's own self confidence in their beliefs, it is about explain to the target audience why you believe something to be true.

Let me phrase it to you this way: What benefit does society gain from releasing said violent criminal back into our communities early rather than keeping him/her away from the rest of us for the duration of the sentence?

Note: This question is directly addressing individuals who have already been convicted of crimes and are in prison. That is what this discussion is about to me, how should society treat people who have already proven by their actions that they are willing to disregard the safety and rights of others. I don't disagree with you about the role of drugs in criminal activities, nor the believe that prosecuting crimes "against one's self" are sucking up needed resources.

[MrRational]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

Let me phrase it to you this way: What benefit does society gain from releasing said violent criminal
back into our communities early rather than keeping him/her away from the rest of us for the duration of the sentence?

Let me phrase it to you this way: That isn't the question.
Or at least not a question that gets solved by longer prison sentences.

In the "black lives matter thread last week:

Originally Posted by MrRational

Of the (300+?) murders and (1000+?) felony assaults that occurred last year alone...
how many were the Inspector Morse who-done-it sort of incident? Maybe 10.

The idea is that absent those deaths (and by implication all that goes on behind those deaths)
life would likely be better for everyone -- whether directly impacted by any of the deaths or not.

My point, and I like to think have agreed already, MOST of the crime in question that your "said violent criminal" might commit
is largely happening inside of a sad vacuum that will not be disturbed one whit by removing him from the corner either by going
to prison for some number of decades at $45,000 a year in cost ($38K in 2012)...

...nor will it be changed when the next "said violent criminal" does him in (as often seems inevitable) which also clarifies the point
that it is NOT happening "in our communities" at all ...and extends the larger point: the CJ approach just misses the mark.

Find another balloon.
---
eta: I'll be the first to say the problem is larger than what Baltimore or Maryland can solve alone.

[MyGoldenLife]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

The difference for me is when a neutral/self-harm behavior like drug use begins to negatively affect other people. At that point, it is a crime like any other. Whether one steals or murders over drugs, money, love, anger, whatever, the motive is secondary to the reality that their behavior has shown themselves to be a danger to society.

I agree with you again that fixing the drug problem (if such a solution is possible) would eliminate much of the criminal problem, but once a person has lowered themselves to the point where consideration of the property and safety of others is secondary, there is a right owed to the rest of us.

The non-drug using non-criminals of the world have a right to not be put at risk by those that can't control themselves. Whether prison is Paradise Island or a gulag warehouse it still accomplishes the goal of keeping the criminals and the rest of us apart.

So, build a better prison, fix the drug problem, do whatever you can to help out those heading down that ruinous path, but once others are harmed, put the criminal away. It may not break the cycle of criminality, but it is one less danger the rest of us have to deal with.

What are we to do when they are released? Black or White? Prison typically doesn't "reform" so we keep an open door policy of recidivism.....

Consider the recidivism rates are extremely high. How much can we afford to continue to pay to house criminals (black or white)?

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by MrRational

Let me phrase it to you this way: That isn't the question.
Or at least not a question that gets solved by longer prison sentences.

In the "black lives matter thread last week:


My point, and I like to think have agreed already, MOST of the crime in question that your "said violent criminal" might commit
is largely happening inside of a sad vacuum that will not be disturbed one whit by removing him from the corner either by going
to prison for some number of decades at $45,000 a year in cost ($38K in 2012)...

...nor will it be changed when the next "said violent criminal" does him in (as often seems inevitable) which also clarifies the point
that it is NOT happening "in our communities" at all ...and extends the larger point: the CJ approach just misses the mark.

Find another balloon.

As best I can figure, your 'answer' is an attempt to avoid the question entirely by stating "most crimes" committed would be outside "my community" and inflicted on other drug dealers/users. Playing the percentage game on who the next victim is does not reassure me and as a law-abiding member of society I refuse to be put at risk unnecessarily by these people. Random break-ins, armed robberies, muggings, car thefts, and sometimes worse are committed every day by drug addicted (and other) criminals who could still be behind bars.

It happens in my town all the time. It happened in my neighborhood 2 summers ago. I guess I should go tell my neighbors who had their house broken into, the cabbie who was robbed at gun point, and the elderly women who was assaulted in her home that some avatar on the internet assured me this early release criminal was unlikely by numbers to harm them? And that in most cases, his crimes would be committed against those in his "own community?" Victims don't really care about these %s when they are the ones harmed.

Come off the balloon metaphors and return to earth. You can be 100% correct that the CJ system can't solve the problems of drug addiction and related crime by itself, and still be wrong that once a criminal takes the plunge into victimizing others, the rest of us are better off with that person out of circulation for as long as the law allows.

I will gladly pay more taxes for more jails. As mentioned, my tax dollars are going to support these individuals whether it is through public assistance or incarceration costs. I will choose the later and decrease the risk another person is made into a victim.

[MyGoldenLife]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

Didn't know the term "Afro American" was still a thing.

It's not. Blacks have never been known as Afro (as in a hair style) American.