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Politely, I would say you are wrong. I know that people in Huntsville have a need to distinguish between Madison and Huntsville, but I assure you I never know when I am in one or the other.
Your suggestion about Atlanta is also skewed. You would refer to Virginia Highlands and Ponce Ave. but stop short of mentioning the farmers market in Decatur which is adjacent to the small part of Atlanta in DeKalb County.
From the way the article was written I am fairly sure this guy thought that when one traveled over Red Mountain, or even Shades Mountain they are out of the city.
From experience I can say that it would seem futile and a bit ridiculous to discern when one has entered one police zone/township/what have you, into another. What would be the point.
In Birmingham, if you are shopping in the largest commercial area of Homewood or Mountain Brook, you would find yourself in Birmingham, as you would if you went to the Zoo or Botanical Gardens. If you went to an affair at the Country Club of Birmingham you would be in Mountain Brook.
In response to your reference to 'those suburbs'; I am surprised that you do not know the answer. All of the suburbs and unincorporated areas of Jefferson are intrinsically tied to the city as a whole. A small example; the Temple of Sybil one passes on top of Shades Mountain entering Vestavia Hills is from a garden that existed at the estate of a former mayor of Birmingham in VH, which was also a design of a Roman temple. The Vesta Temple. Corporate limits here hopscotch much like they do in L.A.
This could go on forever so I will close by pointing out that your reference to Atlanta does not work because Alpharetta and most other suburbs did not abut the city but are miles away until recent years except for the city of Decatur that I mentioned. Each city's history is different and in some cities the relationships will vary.
But if you visit Chicago or Los Angeles or most American cities you will find that the geopolitical boundaries are irrelevant unless you want to discuss school districts.
I don't know what you base your assumption about Birmingham on, but I base mine on a lifetime here. Which reminds me that when I went to high school downtown, many of our students were from Gardendale, Warrior, Forestdale, Fultondale and so on because there were no county schools in that area then. So the county paid the tuition to the city. WE GREW BEYOND OUR BOARDERS, BUT WE ARE STILL BIRMINGHAM.
I realize Duval County was consolidated and I also realize there is a great conflict between Huntsville and Madison, but it is not accurate to assume Birmingham or any other city is only that which is in the city limits.
DID YOU KNOW THAT THE STATUE OF LIBERTY IS IN NEW JERSEY. (I honestly believe this makes my point as to writing an article about a city and leaving something out because it is across the street, or across the harbor. Just not realistic.)
Yes, I know that the statue of Liberty is in NJ. And most people tie it to NY. I understand and quite get that. But a significant and historical landmark is not the same as what a 'burb is to a city, or a city is to a 'burb and what the relationship means.
Even folks who I know who lived in Birmingham and near birmingham in some cases make a great distinction about the difference between the 'burb they grew up in and Birmingham proper. And while you firmly believe that those same 'burbs are Birmingham, many outside views and inside views don't agree with that. Maybe its a generational thing. Most of the people I know who are from there or live there are in their 30's or 40s. I know lots of folks on city data like to talk about metro statistics and things like that. Perception is reality though. My perception is based on visiting many times a year, a girlfriend who's from there, friends who still live there. Perception holds long enough and spreads long enough, thats how the world views that city or culture.
As far as Duval County(Jacksonville) goes, the beaches will not incorporate with Jacksonville, along with Ponte Vedra in St. Johns county. The irony compared to your attitude in Birmingham is that most people who live in Jacksonville or are from Jacksonville believe the beaches are tied to the hip of Jacksonville and are apart of Jacksonville culture and History. The people living at the Beach or from the Beach will make the distinction between the Beaches and Jacksonville very clear, and would wish less influence on their little beach from Jacksonville citizens and Jacksonville politics. The beaches pride themselves on not being in Jacksonville proper.
From a geographical perspective, there are 'burbs in Jacksonville that are farther from downtown Jacksonville than Hoover or Gardendale is from Birmingham City Limits, and in my perspective those 'burbs are more "Jacksonville" than Hoover is Birmingham. I think fundamentally it comes down to where one spends time living and working in a city, but I also think voting has a good bit to do with it as well.
Getting to Madison/Huntsville for a second. I'm sure some would argue that Madison is Huntsville (from your statement of "We are still Birmingham), in the way you describe your 'burbs to Birmingham. That sentiment from what I can tell is in the vast minority though.
Yes, I know that the statue of Liberty is in NJ. And most people tie it to NY. I understand and quite get that. But a significant and historical landmark is not the same as what a 'burb is to a city, or a city is to a 'burb and what the relationship means.
Even folks who I know who lived in Birmingham and near birmingham in some cases make a great distinction about the difference between the 'burb they grew up in and Birmingham proper. And while you firmly believe that those same 'burbs are Birmingham, many outside views and inside views don't agree with that. Maybe its a generational thing. Most of the people I know who are from there or live there are in their 30's or 40s. I know lots of folks on city data like to talk about metro statistics and things like that. Perception is reality though. My perception is based on visiting many times a year, a girlfriend who's from there, friends who still live there. Perception holds long enough and spreads long enough, thats how the world views that city or culture.
As far as Duval County(Jacksonville) goes, the beaches will not incorporate with Jacksonville, along with Ponte Vedra in St. Johns county. The irony compared to your attitude in Birmingham is that most people who live in Jacksonville or are from Jacksonville believe the beaches are tied to the hip of Jacksonville and are apart of Jacksonville culture and History. The people living at the Beach or from the Beach will make the distinction between the Beaches and Jacksonville very clear, and would wish less influence on their little beach from Jacksonville citizens and Jacksonville politics. The beaches pride themselves on not being in Jacksonville proper.
From a geographical perspective, there are 'burbs in Jacksonville that are farther from downtown Jacksonville than Hoover or Gardendale is from Birmingham City Limits, and in my perspective those 'burbs are more "Jacksonville" than Hoover is Birmingham. I think fundamentally it comes down to where one spends time living and working in a city, but I also think voting has a good bit to do with it as well.
Getting to Madison/Huntsville for a second. I'm sure some would argue that Madison is Huntsville (from your statement of "We are still Birmingham), in the way you describe your 'burbs to Birmingham. That sentiment from what I can tell is in the vast minority though.
you right it's a generational thing....a lot of older generations see it as a "I do, but I don't" deal anyway. they work, shop, and play in the city, but don't want to claim that city as that's where I reside. alot of suburbs (mountain brook, hoover, 280) have Birmingham address and still don't say they from Birmingham. but if you ask their kids, the kids will say i'm from Birmingham. over 213,000 residents, do you think they all live on the west , north and east parts of Birmingham?
Last edited by mcalumni01; 07-11-2014 at 03:40 PM..
Reason: left info out
Yes, I know that the statue of Liberty is in NJ. And most people tie it to NY. I understand and quite get that. But a significant and historical landmark is not the same as what a 'burb is to a city, or a city is to a 'burb and what the relationship means.
Even folks who I know who lived in Birmingham and near Birmingham in some cases make a great distinction about the difference between the 'burb they grew up in and Birmingham proper. And while you firmly believe that those same 'burbs are Birmingham, many outside views and inside views don't agree with that. Maybe its a generational thing. Most of the people I know who are from there or live there are in their 30's or 40s. I know lots of folks on city data like to talk about metro statistics and things like that. Perception is reality though. My perception is based on visiting many times a year, a girlfriend who's from there, friends who still live there. Perception holds long enough and spreads long enough, thats how the world views that city or culture.
When an Alabamian is talking to another Alabamian - you will most likely hear the line drawn in the sand and more specific info. No doubt about it. We are all, in general, more familiar with the cities and areas in our state then anyone else. Most people asking you where you are from or where you grew up are going to want to hear a more specific answer then just "Birmingham." You go on vacation, you travel, you get some hundreds of miles away from home, trying to describe one suburb or exurb to a person from a different state is tedious, you are most likely going to claim the largest city/metro that is associated with your home.
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Getting to Madison/Huntsville for a second. I'm sure some would argue that Madison is Huntsville (from your statement of "We are still Birmingham), in the way you describe your 'burbs to Birmingham. That sentiment from what I can tell is in the vast minority though.
Huntsville is a bit of a conundrum because of the very trite battle between it and Madison. I say trite because both cities/towns are like suburbs floating off on their own looking for a metro to be a part of. Madison thinks it is a city of its own, and not a suburb (of Huntsville) in the traditional sense, a dash city like Decatur is. But there would be no Madison without Huntsville, at least not in its current form. Just like sooo many/all of Birmingham's suburbs would not exist at all or in their current form or infrastructure without Birmingham, so why exclude them for the sake of an article? If I go to a Baron's game, or to The Fish Market DT or take a walk at RR Park - I am more likely to be sitting near, walking with or eating next to people from all over the metro - inside the city proper and out. The same when people go to work. It is silly to consider the city as a whole, without talking about the whole and that includes Birmingham AND her 'burbs.
I get the feeling all three of the trolls here are the same person. Somebody in Birmingham must have really ticked this guy off. LOL
Yes, we have a few split personalities that drag themselves through here to no avail. (which seems not to occur to them)
Some of them show up in a few more cities. It seems when something new is announced or the city gets yet more promotional hype from the national press they just can't stand it.
The mental level is fairly obvious, so on a local level most of us just let it run its course until moderation sets in. They do seem to be clueless about how cities evolve and refine; it would seem to be a horse race to them. lol
Yes, we have a few split personalities that drag themselves through here to no avail. (which seems not to occur to them)
Some of them show up in a few more cities. It seems when something new is announced or the city gets yet more promotional hype from the national press they just can't stand it.
The mental level is fairly obvious, so on a local level most of us just let it run its course until moderation sets in. They do seem to be clueless about how cities evolve and refine; it would seem to be a horse race to them. lol
it's like what's the difference between Birmingham and others cities in America that's progressing. it's these old 60, 70 years old ignorant gent's that can't imagine seeing Birmingham today because it shouldn't be like that. they want Birmingham to be that city they know when they was young. anything happening for the better in Birmingham makes them have that much more hatred for the city. sad
you right it's a generational thing....a lot of older generations see it as a "I do, but I don't" deal anyway. they work, shop, and play in the city, but don't want to claim that city as that's where I reside. alot of suburbs (mountain brook, hoover, 280) have Birmingham address and still don't say they from Birmingham. but if you ask their kids, the kids will say i'm from Birmingham. over 213,000 residents, do you think they all live on the west , north and east parts of Birmingham?
A postal address IMHO doesn't mean much when it comes to defining the city one lives in. People who live in Huntsville city limits can have a Harvest mailing address.
I honestly think it depends on what folks do and how often they do it in and around the city. For example, I have a cousin who lives a few miles south of Marietta and works in Symrna. The go to "Atlanta" a few times a year, and thats it. They don't shop there, they don't live there, and they don't work there.
I've got a friend who lives in Gardendale, works in Hoover and shops in Hoover and Gardendale. He won't touch Birmingham. Entertainment wise, he might go to a concert at the BJCC once a year. Most of his entertainment is in Hoover and Moutainbrook.
My own feeling on this is that as larger cities sprawl and get more suburban, work gets closer to suburbia, shopping gets closer to suburbia, and the large city associated with it is there for the few who do live and work in the city. Culturally and identity wise..suburban areas outside of the city will feel less and less like the city or will have a whole different culture and identity.
I've got a friend who lives in Gardendale, works in Hoover and shops in Hoover and Gardendale. He won't touch Birmingham. Entertainment wise, he might go to a concert at the BJCC once a year. Most of his entertainment is in Hoover and Moutainbrook.
My own feeling on this is that as larger cities sprawl and get more suburban, work gets closer to suburbia, shopping gets closer to suburbia, and the large city associated with it is there for the few who do live and work in the city. Culturally and identity wise..suburban areas outside of the city will feel less and less like the city or will have a whole different culture and identity.
If someone wants to only eat at chain restaurants and shop at malls they can stay out in the suburbs and lead a happy life. No doubt these people exist and no doubt they truly don't feel a connection with the core city. But these people are still unique and in the minority. What I suspect is more common is people who go out of their way not to associate with Birmingham because they have an aversion to it or they just say they do and attend events in the city but just don't talk about it. And to be fair, there just hasn't been much do in the city until the biggest push to make it a place for people, families and everybody have something to want to do down there. To skip it because you think Birmingham is too boring, too unsafe or too black is just being dishonest and people like that shouldn't be brought into the equation. Either they will come around or they won't it doesn't matter. I know people in Hoover who won't go to a Barons game because they left Trace crossings. How silly is that? It doesn't matter. The Barons are doing just fine without them.
What's going on right now is a push to make Birmingham more attractive to everyone. There's really not any reason to stay away or force oneself to not take part in the rebirth, you would just be hurting yourself. And no, its not going to make anyone say "I'm from Birmingham." that is just dead set against it but it will go along way in creating a bunch more people who will who don't have those hangups.
If someone wants to only eat at chain restaurants and shop at malls they can stay out in the suburbs and lead a happy life. No doubt these people exist and no doubt they truly don't feel a connection with the core city. But these people are still unique and in the minority. What I suspect is more common is people who go out of their way not to associate with Birmingham because they have an aversion to it or they just say they do and attend events in the city but just don't talk about it. And to be fair, there just hasn't been much do in the city until the biggest push to make it a place for people, families and everybody have something to want to do down there. To skip it because you think Birmingham is too boring, too unsafe or too black is just being dishonest and people like that shouldn't be brought into the equation. Either they will come around or they won't it doesn't matter. I know people in Hoover who won't go to a Barons game because they left Trace crossings. How silly is that? It doesn't matter. The Barons are doing just fine without them.
What's going on right now is a push to make Birmingham more attractive to everyone. There's really not any reason to stay away or force oneself to not take part in the rebirth, you would just be hurting yourself. And no, its not going to make anyone say "I'm from Birmingham." that is just dead set against it but it will go along way in creating a bunch more people who will who don't have those hangups.
I'm not entirely disagreeing. When I was living in West Huntsville, I'd eat at places and shop at places from Madison to central Huntsville. Now that I live in Meridianville, I don't go to Madison to Shop or eat anymore, but find myself eating and shopping in central and south Huntsville.
More to my point though and more directed at the article, is that not including all the suburbs when talking about Birmingham is a valid way of discussing the area just as much as including those areas in that same discussion.
If people in Birmingham are unhappy about the perception from people outside of the area exclude the suburbs when talking about Birmingham, then its up to the people of the suburbs and Birmingham to change that perception. Simply stating that all the suburbs already incorporated as individual cities are Birmingham as a matter of fact isn't going to change those perceptions.
I'm not entirely disagreeing. When I was living in West Huntsville, I'd eat at places and shop at places from Madison to central Huntsville. Now that I live in Meridianville, I don't go to Madison to Shop or eat anymore, but find myself eating and shopping in central and south Huntsville.
More to my point though and more directed at the article, is that not including all the suburbs when talking about Birmingham is a valid way of discussing the area just as much as including those areas in that same discussion.
If people in Birmingham are unhappy about the perception from people outside of the area exclude the suburbs when talking about Birmingham, then its up to the people of the suburbs and Birmingham to change that perception. Simply stating that all the suburbs already incorporated as individual cities are Birmingham as a matter of fact isn't going to change those perceptions.
We're not unhappy about it, per se - it just feels a bit disingenuous to go about it the way the author did. Homewood, Mountain Brook, Vestavia and yes even Hoover are very directly tied to Birmingham. But especially Homewood and Mountain Brook. Further out places like Calera, Helena, McCalla yeah, those are just sprawl towns that got sucked in as Birmingham spread out. For an author to avoid talking about the inner ring of burbs as if they are wholly and totally separated and unassociated with Birmingham is just not being honest or telling the whole story.
It is a problem that is going to take care of itself. Birmingham is fast becoming a place for people to want to go and stay. There are lots of professionals draw to the city by UAB and they don't have the hangups of people who live in Wilsonville or Chelsea or whatever sleepy town that now finds itself in our CSA. All this new generation and new influx of people will know is that they live in Birmingham.
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