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I am very sorry, phetaroi.
There is no heaven and hell.
As I said before, there are places in Earth crust, where "souls" that lost all The Light of Intelligence, alloted to them, dwell, amongst alikes. But this is not hell, though it surely may be looked at it that way. It is all in interpretation.
There is one of the after the death states that can be referred to as hell. That is when "soul" (for lack of better word for mutual communication, I am using common term) is cleansed from all of its desires. It, again, MAY be interpreted, by that "soul", as hell, as there is certain suffering involved, suffering of moral nature, suffering of pure conscience. Type of manifestation is completely relevant to what a person belived into during existence, so it might be devils with pitchforks or rakshas tearing "soul" apart.
Thereafter, "soul", so purified, transitions to state of complete happiness which may be referred to as heaven. Again, it is very subjective perception.
phetaroi, in the Great Thereafter, there is no "place'. Dimensions, as we know it, laws of physics, as we know it, are non applicable there.
You, of course, will choose to believe whatever you want to. Regretfully, I do not really consider art in form of sculptures on shrine walls or monks opinions, a valid proof to much. They chose their path, their set of beliefs. You have your choice.
Remember two points though, please.
1. any knowledge is useless and ballast on "soul", only increasing its bondage to the world. Only empty mind can be filled with no-thing of nirvan.
2. remember, what Sukyamuni said. Listen you not to anyone. Listen you not to your sages and your elders. Listen you not even to me. Listen only to your - then it varies. There were many interpretations butlet's do this one: “Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”
phetaroi, only your inner Self will give the only true answers to your questions.
Be well
I am very sorry, phetaroi.
There is no heaven and hell.
As I said before, there are places in Earth crust, where "souls" that lost all The Light of Intelligence, alloted to them, dwell, amongst alikes. But this is not hell, though it surely may be looked at it that way. It is all in interpretation.
There is one of the after the death states that can be referred to as hell. That is when "soul" (for lack of better word for mutual communication, I am using common term) is cleansed from all of its desires. It, again, MAY be interpreted, by that "soul", as hell, as there is certain suffering involved, suffering of moral nature, suffering of pure conscience. Type of manifestation is completely relevant to what a person belived into during existence, so it might be devils with pitchforks or rakshas tearing "soul" apart.
Thereafter, "soul", so purified, transitions to state of complete happiness which may be referred to as heaven. Again, it is very subjective perception.
phetaroi, in the Great Thereafter, there is no "place'. Dimensions, as we know it, laws of physics, as we know it, are non applicable there.
You, of course, will choose to believe whatever you want to. Regretfully, I do not really consider art in form of sculptures on shrine walls or monks opinions, a valid proof to much. They chose their path, their set of beliefs. You have your choice.
Remember two points though, please.
1. any knowledge is useless and ballast on "soul", only increasing its bondage to the world. Only empty mind can be filled with no-thing of nirvan.
2. remember, what Sukyamuni said. Listen you not to anyone. Listen you not to your sages and your elders. Listen you not even to me. Listen only to your - then it varies. There were many interpretations butlet's do this one: “Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”
phetaroi, only your inner Self will give the only true answers to your questions.
Be well
Namaste
You don't know the difference between a FACT and an OPINION. You have one opinion about heaven and hell. The monks have a different opinion about heaven and hell. Neither of you can prove it. That's what makes them opinions.
And yes, I am very well aware of that Buddha quote. Which is why I don't you believe you. And by the way, there can be no direct Buddha quotes since nothing was written down in Buddha's time...it was all oral tradition for 454 years.
Additionally, saying the inner self will give you true answers...corn pone. There are millions of people in the world whose inner self have given them wrong answers. It's a childish concept.
Heaven and hell can be described and thought of in many different ways. People who say there "there is no hell" tend to be referring to only one connotation / meaning. By making absolute and sweeping statements with that wide broom, it touches more matters than it should, in a haphazard way. Being more precise when making statements would help.
Thanisarro Bhikku says that the hell realm is real, and so does Bhikkhu Bodhi. Both are famous Thereavada Buddhists.
I'm glad you posted that because I had forgotten to get back to the thread and tell y'all what the monks said. Just what you said. The one big difference, however, between their perception of Buddhist hell, nuch different than "Christian hell" is that -- according to them -- if you go to Buddhist hell, it is a temporary state...not a forever state.
BTW, I'm not saying they're right. Who knows. Just passing on info about a topic.
So I chatted with 3 Thai Theravada monks today about Buddhist heaven and hell, and all 3 insisted they were actual places, not just mental states.
Yeah! I say this because I was just arguing with another person on the Tibetan Buddhist link, and this person didn't believe that Theravada taught hell.
I know better than to believe in any hell taught by any religion. It was created in man's mind in order to frighten people, to make them do what they want them to do.
As one Catholic priest told me when I told him that there was no hell. "If we didn't teach it, the people would go out and sin." Karma is used to frighten people too.
I always enjoy your pithy comments and commentary.
With all due respect, most Bhikkhus are not Pali scholars, and have little understanding of the deeper meanings of this wisdom tradition.
In Thailand, many bhikkhus are village boys who are sort of chosen to be bhikkhus. They are not scholars, and do not always have a deep understanding of their religion.
For deep thought, Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Thanisaro are Buddhist scholars, but they were scholars of philosophy before entering into the Buddhist religion.
As to the existence of Buddhist heaven and hell, I prefer the answer given in the Majjhima Nikaya, Sutta 63 about questions which tend not to edification.
To live in the here and now, and see the world as it is, is sufficient for me.
When perusing the Nikayas, the Buddha avoids talking about ontology, and focuses on practice.
Both Thanissaro and Bhikku Bodhi said it was a literal hell. And if we are to live in the here and now why did Buddha bring up hell?
You don't know the difference between a FACT and an OPINION. You have one opinion about heaven and hell. The monks have a different opinion about heaven and hell. Neither of you can prove it. That's what makes them opinions.
And yes, I am very well aware of that Buddha quote. Which is why I don't you believe you. And by the way, there can be no direct Buddha quotes since nothing was written down in Buddha's time...it was all oral tradition for 454 years.
Additionally, saying the inner self will give you true answers...corn pone. There are millions of people in the world whose inner self have given them wrong answers. It's a childish concept.
You are a very wise person. I can't see you being in Buddhism. We don't really know what Buddha said, just like we don't know what Christ said. We can't rely on man to have remember exactly all that Buddha said, and we don't know if he really existed.
These are man made religions, and as you noticed, maybe, it is still the man being the head of the woman. Most of these religions don't believe that a woman can become enlightened, and then try finding out what enlightenment means, and you will get different answers. I think if people find Buddhism helps them to have peace of mind, then go for it.
Thanisarro Bhikku says that the hell realm is real, and so does Bhikkhu Bodhi. Both are famous Thereavada Buddhists.
Famous by who's standards? LOL I only know of one famous Theravada monk who was just flown from M.D. Anderson in Houston back to Sri Lanka due to M.D. Anderson's inability to cure his cancer...he is the first monk to televise Buddhist teachings...that's what he was famous for.
The monks you mention are American monks...and as brianberkeley correctly stated: most Bhikkhus are not Pali scholars, and have little understanding of the deeper meanings of this wisdom tradition.
What scholar do you quote who says that Buddha never taught hell?
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