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Society, indeed. I'm willing to be people in those "socialist" societies don't put up with the BS behavior that we tolerate in America. Liberal socialists in the Nordic countries still demand basic standards of behavior. In America, the far left liberals have an "anything goes" attitude and demonize anyone who doesn't go along.
I agree to some extent on the basic standards of behavior. A level of social "respect" and "responsibility" exists in those societies, I do not see as frequently here. IMO we used to have it, but our society has broken down past that level. IMO Our prosperity has made us selfish, spoiled, greedy and lazy.....
The entitlement knife cuts both ways, those that expect hand outs and those that feel they do not owe society anything, everything they earned is theirs. (Neither are desirable.)
Heck, I am a Socialist for the most part. (Except for schizophrenia days when I have Libertarian leanings.. LOL) I surely do not support an "anything goes" attitude...
I suppose their are some "far left".. I don't think that is the problem though.... We can not point fingers at either extreme right or left..... Our problem is ours, and we as a society need to deal with it... A complex issue, and until our politicians stop talking in polarizing sound bites to get votes, it will be difficult if not impossible to address beyond providing things such as toilets and basic needs to lessen the impact on the non-homeless portion of society.
To actually address how and why a society can let some fall so far, would take some "humbility" and soul searching on all of our parts... A level of maturity too many Americans seem not to posses.
Thanks for a great answer to the poster's question, jim. Your position is now absolutely clear. You can't see a thing from where you are.
I see things quite clearly, if you subsidize something you get more of it.
What the pseudo "compassionate people" who sponsor poverty and human degradation do not understand is that they are the ones who make it easy for people to live in failure. They are the ones who reward failure and as a result allow it to grow and prosper.
The welfare state created by the "compassionate people" of the 60's and 70's is a perfect example. They paid people to fail, and they created generations of people trapped in a system of failure and degradation.
They would prefer to do what feels good than to do what works.
This quote properly describes them.
"The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.”
Thomas Sowell
I see things quite clearly, if you subsidize something you get more of it.
Thanks. I think I see more clearly now what you are getting at. You mean like bailouts and corporate tax breaks and rights as if they were people and stuff like that right?
I still don't quite get why the homeless need a Bill of Rights. Aren't they citizens just like the rest of us? Don't we already have a Bill of Rights? Why do the homeless need their own special set of rules?
Read the Bill of Rights. Do you see anything in there about:
• the right for citizens to NOT own property in order to be treated as Americans?
• the right to basic sanitation where citizens who find themselves without financial resources must survive?
• the right for citizens to sleep freely on American soil whether they can afford to buy/rent a spot or not?
• the right for citizens to sit and rest and eat without harassment because they are without financial resources?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HereOnMars
Someone posted earlier (can't recall who) that they don't steal from merchants but some of them most certainly do. I set many court dates for misdemeanor crimes of theft by transients. Easy to spot when their current address read, "none."
Do non-homeless people steal? Do you ever set court dates for people who have homes and apartments? How about for investment bankers who defraud the national population?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HereOnMars
This Bill is just another absurdity coming out of the State Capitol. I'll bet none of the Assembly members live in neighborhoods where they see the sort of things that go on. It's pretty easy for them to pass legislature for things that won't have any impact on them, personally.
Ah, but they live in neighborhoods with white-collar criminals whose activities have devastating impact on all of us ... and they feel completely free to overlook it.
I see things quite clearly, if you subsidize something you get more of it.
What the pseudo "compassionate people" who sponsor poverty and human degradation do not understand is that they are the ones who make it easy for people to live in failure. They are the ones who reward failure and as a result allow it to grow and prosper.
The welfare state created by the "compassionate people" of the 60's and 70's is a perfect example. They paid people to fail, and they created generations of people trapped in a system of failure and degradation.
They would prefer to do what feels good than to do what works.
This quote properly describes them.
"The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.”
Thomas Sowell
Good morning jim. As long as we're going to entertain your viewpoint punctuated by quotations [by conservatives] let's share some Abraham Lincoln, shall we?
Quote:
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching. It unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. The money powers preys upon the nation in times of peace and conspires against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy, more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces, as public enemies, all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes. I have two great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me & the financial institutions at the rear, the latter is my greatest foe. Corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in the hands of a few, and the Republic is destroyed."-Abraham Lincoln, letter to William Elkins, Nov 21, 1864 (after the passage of the debt causing National Bank Act [June 3, 1864])
It isn't that the 1% at the top of the food chain can't see how they destroy America ... it's that they don't care. They create the money [out of nothing], [backed by nothing more than illusion] ... they market the dream of wealth to people who will never have any ... and they conspire to market the illusion that welfare is robbing the nation of what they -- the 1% -- have created only for themselves.
This results, among other things, in turning brother against brother as lives and homes are sacrificed to poverty.
Then maybe move on up to the LIBOR and ISDAfix credit / interest rate / swaps fixing scandals ... how prices are rigged for precious metals ... and every other financial instrument and product in the world ... rigged by a fractional percentage of even the tiny top 1% ers. You like to read Thomas Sowell? Try Matt Taibi: The Biggest Price-Fixing Scandal Ever | Politics News | Rolling Stone
But you won't read the full spectrum and think it through will you? Easier to bully the little guys that literally don't have a pot to pi** in.
I see things quite clearly, if you subsidize something you get more of it.
What the pseudo "compassionate people" who sponsor poverty and human degradation do not understand is that they are the ones who make it easy for people to live in failure. They are the ones who reward failure and as a result allow it to grow and prosper.
The welfare state created by the "compassionate people" of the 60's and 70's is a perfect example. They paid people to fail, and they created generations of people trapped in a system of failure and degradation.
They would prefer to do what feels good than to do what works.
This quote properly describes them.
"The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.”
Thomas Sowell
I could almost believe your theory in the case of the out of control Defense Department spending.
However, the fact that poverty rates are lower than they were in the 1950's, is indicative of the success of programs moving people off the welfare roles.
According to Welfare brain 4.1% of Americans are on welfare. Only 19.6% stay on over 5 years. The rest move off the roles and proceed on with their lives.
We have more spending overall due to a larger population, inflation, and spending on additional programs that help those on welfare move off the roles.
I could almost believe your theory in the case of the out of control Defense Department spending.
However, the fact that poverty rates are lower than they were in the 1950's, is indicative of the success of programs moving people off the welfare roles.
According to Welfare brain 4.1% of Americans are on welfare. Only 19.6% stay on over 5 years. The rest move off the roles and proceed on with their lives.
We have more spending overall due to a larger population, inflation, and spending on additional programs that help those on welfare move off the roles.
*Bam!*
(thanks ... I get tired sometimes of repeating those stats and links)
I see things quite clearly, if you subsidize something you get more of it.
What the pseudo "compassionate people" who sponsor poverty and human degradation do not understand is that they are the ones who make it easy for people to live in failure. They are the ones who reward failure and as a result allow it to grow and prosper.
The welfare state created by the "compassionate people" of the 60's and 70's is a perfect example. They paid people to fail, and they created generations of people trapped in a system of failure and degradation.
They would prefer to do what feels good than to do what works.
This quote properly describes them.
"The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling.”
Thomas Sowell
Here are some ideas.
1. Have safety nets in place to lessen the number of folks who hit rock bottom.
2. Provide very basic needs support for those that do hit bottom.. (For their sake and for our own...hint hint, if they are not so desperate and have a ray of hope they may not kill you for a slice of bread...)
3. Screen for mental illness, identify and treat.
4. Here is the big one you seem to fail to see.:::: Lift those that hit bottom up... Education, training, and subsidized jobs if need be.
No one is advocating dumping money into a bottomless pit.... Society is the investor, and investors expect to see results...
Like the Mutt said, Phil ... when was the last time you invented a better lightbulb?
And no, Phil, "The Homeless" don't do those nasty things you list, crazy people and drunks - some of whom are sometimes homeless -- do those things ... understand the difference? No, probably not.
Do you ever arrest people for doing bad things who aren't homeless? Oh huh. Did you ever respond to the call when a small group of investment bankers ripped off middle America and pretty much crashed the world's economy and drove millions of middle Americans out of work -- AND HOMES? No? Didn't get that call? Just the one where some schizophrenic off his meds started drinking and sh*t in a Jack-In-The-Box. Tch. Nasty, that. Cost the business some money to clean up? What, an extra $5? $10 Everyday? How much did the investment bankers' crimes cost America and the people who ended up homeless? Oh. $ Trillions.
And those fat boys have all the money in the world now because they get away with trashing their country and sh*tting on everyone. They've got the money to fix the homeless problem too. Good luck getting them to spend a dime on the project.
Listen, meanwhile back at the ranch, you need to learn about all the homeless who AREN'T crapping on the floors, but who have no place to turn for sanitation and food and sleep. I just heard yesterday from one I helped through a rough patch that took him a few years. He's back fixing computer business systems and moving out of transitional housing. Never crapped on a floor the whole time. Another is an architect / urban planner who hit the bottle when he lost his job and investments and home a few years before retirement so he's too old to compete now in his profession. His ex-wife, who held onto her job at lowered pay, but also inherited a little money just in the nick of time, is now paying some rent for him to keep him off the street and his grown kids are feeding him. He never crapped on a floor either. But you just go ahead and focus on the mental cases and criminals and call the whole bunch that.
I don't need to invent the better lightbulb. I protect and provide for society by being part of the solution and not the problem. I pay taxes; a large amount of taxes. I don't suck out the social programs of this state and expect more.
I arrest all sorts of people; homeless, not homeless, people with jobs, rich, poor, and everything in-between. And? This thread was and is about homeless people. MANY homeless people are nothing more then wastes of oxygen, who refuse to accept help. They DO NOT want your limp wristed, liberal help and refuse. MOST homeless people are drug addicts, alcoholics, and mental patients. The mental patients refuse to take their medications and self medicate with drugs and alcohol.
And no, after 24 years working in one of the worst homeless cities in the SF Bay Area, I have NEVER seen a homeless "family" or person who is "normal." Who just lost their job and cannot afford to make ends meet. EVERY SINGLE homeless person I have come across is a drunk, drug addicted, nut case. And the destroy whole communities with their abuse behavior toward everyone. They are nut cases, who walk into the local 7-11 and steal their sandwiches saying, "I was hungry. They owe me this." Oh its just a few dollars to you? You aren't the owner of that business who loses hundreds, thousands of dollars a month to all the homeless nut cases out there. You aren't the guy who has to deal with it everyday. You sit in your chair, have a few martini's and have weeks to decide what is right and wrong. These people live it everyday and they are TIRED of it. They call me; NOT YOU.
I have to deal with these people walking into Burger King and taking a dump on the floor. I have to deal with these people who scared the hell out of 9 yr old Jane, walking with her family into Lucky's, and some drunk, stoned, nutcase grabs her by the hair and tells her, "Give me your ipod *****." And she runs, SCREAMING, so loud people think she is being kidnapped calls 911. YOU are sheltered and be warm, cozy, and nice. YOU don't have to deal with the 9 yr olds mother and try to explain, "Oh. Its just a nut case. Don't worry." And she doesn't care. SHE wants the basket case in jail.
I dare you to show me all these "normal" homeless people in the SF Bay Area. SHOW me these people in San Francisco, Oakland, Hayward, etc. You can't and WILL NOT. However, I will show you thousands of persons, RIGHT NOW, TODAY, who suck up every social entitlement program we have. EVERY SINGLE dollar, social dollar, they will take.
Just yesterday, THREE times (this is just me) I dealt with a homeless drunks. MEN, so intoxicated they could not walk. Do you realize the resources for this? You don't. Two police officers, a fire engine (3 firefighters), and an ambulance (a paramedic and and emt; sometimes 2). You can't arrest a falling down drunk. Too much liability. So, you have to send them to the hospital to get medically cleared. Now you have nurses and doctors involved. Now I have to go get them, after being medically cleared and take them to jail. HOURS of this, for a drunk homeless person, who has absolutely no redeeming social value. NONE. MILLIONS of dollars, every year. Last week? I dealt with the same drunk 17 times. That is 17 times 2 cops, 3 firefighters, and the ambulance crew. PLUS the hospital. THAT is where your tax dollars are going.
This "man," read waste of oxygen, has been to rehab, more time then you have hair on your head. Last time I dealt with him, he was a .54. But keep on spending that money liberals. Its not yours.
Read the Bill of Rights. Do you see anything in there about:
• the right for citizens to NOT own property in order to be treated as Americans?
• the right to basic sanitation where citizens who find themselves without financial resources must survive?
• the right for citizens to sleep freely on American soil whether they can afford to buy/rent a spot or not?
• the right for citizens to sit and rest and eat without harassment because they are without financial resources?
Sorry for the confusion but are you referring to the current Bill before the Assembly? I did read it (well, most of it) and there is refernce to items you listed.
Quote:
Do non-homeless people steal? Do you ever set court dates for people who have homes and apartments? How about for investment bankers who defraud the national population?
Of course, non-homeless people steal, nullgeo. You know very well they do. And yes, I did set court dates for them, as well. We're not discussing non-homeless people, though. You are deflecting from the topic but that's quite common on these threads.
Quote:
Ah, but they live in neighborhoods with white-collar criminals whose activities have devastating impact on all of us ... and they feel completely free to overlook it.
Again, a deflection away from the topic but I will agree with it. If they don't see it, they think it doesn't exist ... or rather it doesn't exist in their neighborhood. It's an age-old problem of ignoring what they don't see.
As long as we're deflecting, I'll comment on the new soda tax. Charging a penny an ounce on soda because they are all so concerned about Californians' health. Why not put a penny tax on beer, wine and hard liquor, too? Those cause health problems just as much (if not more) than soda.
See? I can deflect away from the topic just as well as others here.
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