prop 30 money will pay for 4.5% SEIU union members (Sacramento, Nice: fit in, health insurance)

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by zdg

Right, obviously I agree with that. I'm not suggesting unions should never have existed. But I do think a massive overhaul of the workers right to unionize should be considered. As you pointed out, it has today become it's own corrupt pseudogovernment. I'm not for stripping workers of their right to assemble and have their voices heard (obviously), I just don't feel the modern day union is actually helping them (or us or we or whatever). I think more times than not, the union leaders today are making out pretty well, but the union workers find themselves doing silly crap not related to their skills and of course end up being ostracized for simply being a union worker.

I agree. And I never thought you were suggesting unions had not filled an important role. I am only trying to reinforce the reality that we still need unionization -- desperately. What we don't need is avarice, greed, and general chicanery on the part of the unions ... they have among the noblest of missions ... and they are abandoning it.

[cb73]

First, as I've stated here many times, I'm very anti-union. But since the union was voted in by the Legislature, and directly help elect most of the Legislature, let it go. You don't have a hope of getting rid of them.

Second, when I left the State last year, I was earning, due to furloughs, about the same as I earned in 2002-2004. Which was better than during Furlough Fridays, when my pay matched that from 1999. So they finally got a raise? Good for them. I have no actual memory of the last time we got a raise, although I think there was a small one before the recession.

If you don't like how the state employees are? Get a job with them, and help improve things. Most of the really good employees left during the furloughs.

[expatCA]

Originally Posted by zdg

If you work a job that isn't increasing your pay at least to match inflation, as your financial advisor, I highly recommend you try to find another job.

And yes, if you have 5-10% of the state working for the government and losing ground to basic inflation every year, I can tell you why the working and middle class people in this state feel the way you do.

Seems tremendously odd to me that the people complaining about the middle class getting screwed are the same people complaining about trying to keep the middle class from getting screwed.

Hi,

Well I actually haven't had a raises since 2002, but that is so I can give my employees raises. I cut my expenses.

Unlike State employees I can't reach into YOUR pocket to give them more money. I also can't afford the same benefits, though I do fully pay their health coverage, and no way can I give them the fat retirement the State employees get.

Gotta look at the total package not just the wage. Plus the way the State is handling things now, do they really deserve a pay increase? Ever try to get through to a major agency by phone? "I am sorry we are experiencing an unusual call volume", yeah right. How long is your wait at a grocery store, and you don't need to make an appointment VS at the DMV? I spend less time in my Doctor's waiting room that at the CA DMV.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by expatCA

Not if the rest of the employed are not getting essentially the same raises. Who says a raise should be tied to inflation VS doing good work and what the employer can afford?

So what you're saying is that you want civil service raises tied to private sector raises, right? Well, I agree so long as it's tied to CEO raises!

Did the rest of the employed have years of no raises coupled with furloughs. There were also take-backs for managers in addition to the no raises and furloughs. I know. I was a senior one. Lost my 401(k) match of a walloping $100 a month and, had I not retired when I did would have lost over $1,000 a month due to furloughs.

A 4.5% raise doesn't even begin to make up for what the workers have lost/not received for the past six or eight years.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by expatCA

Hi,

Well I actually haven't had a raises since 2002, but that is so I can give my employees raises. I cut my expenses.

Unlike State employees I can't reach into YOUR pocket to give them more money. I also can't afford the same benefits, though I do fully pay their health coverage, and no way can I give them the fat retirement the State employees get.

Gotta look at the total package not just the wage. Plus the way the State is handling things now, do they really deserve a pay increase? Ever try to get through to a major agency by phone? "I am sorry we are experiencing an unusual call volume", yeah right. How long is your wait at a grocery store, and you don't need to make an appointment VS at the DMV? I spend less time in my Doctor's waiting room that at the CA DMV.

So make the appointment or do your DMV business on-line when possible. They're not difficult.

PS. Pension envy is not attractive.

[Gidgetsmidget]

Originally Posted by expatCA

Hi,

Well I actually haven't had a raises since 2002, but that is so I can give my employees raises. I cut my expenses.

Unlike State employees I can't reach into YOUR pocket to give them more money. I also can't afford the same benefits, though I do fully pay their health coverage, and no way can I give them the fat retirement the State employees get.

Gotta look at the total package not just the wage. Plus the way the State is handling things now, do they really deserve a pay increase? Ever try to get through to a major agency by phone? "I am sorry we are experiencing an unusual call volume", yeah right. How long is your wait at a grocery store, and you don't need to make an appointment VS at the DMV? I spend less time in my Doctor's waiting room that at the CA DMV.

Anecdotal I know but I never make an appt at DMV in Santa Barbara and have never waited more than 30 min. Less time than I wait for a doctor appt. Can't speak for LA County though. Common sense would dictate making an appt in a larger city.

I'm not part of a union (work at UC) but I've gotten 1 raise in 5 years of 3% this month and they promptly took 1.5% back for pension contribution. And I was furloughed a few years ago. All while the UC President made the top 10 list of highest paid public uni presidents. I only got my 3% because of the unions since they had been getting modest increases. So they indirectly affect non union members.


The UC also changed non exempt pay this year switching us from monthly to hourly which amounts to an 8% pay cut except for the 2 months in 2013 where we get 3 paychecks a month instead of 2. Many of us are now only staying for health benefits.

I used to think unions were passé but no longer.

[zdg]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

A 4.5% raise doesn't even begin to make up for what the workers have lost/not received for the past six or eight years.

You mean we agree on TWO things in one week?

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by zdg

You mean we agree on TWO things in one week?

I didn't want to tempt the wrath of the gods by pointing that out. What's the world coming to?

[zdg]

Originally Posted by expatCA

Well I actually haven't had a raises since 2002, but that is so I can give my employees raises. I cut my expenses.

I used to do the same. I was always more interested in killing a future mutiny than I was buying myself another meal at a fine restaurant. Such is the life of the business owner: you get paid last.

Unlike State employees I can't reach into YOUR pocket to give them more money.

But also unlike the government, you have the right, in fact the responsibility in down times to find new revenue streams. You can always sell something else. If your business is not conducive to new products or services for some reason you can always start another business. I've had as many as three businesses going at the same time and never worked nights or weekends. The government doesn't have that option unless they raise more taxes, which you're seeing (and complaining about).

I also can't afford the same benefits, though I do fully pay their health coverage, and no way can I give them the fat retirement the State employees get.

Right, but that's because historically government jobs pay less than the same job in the private sector (ask any CPA who works for the state; I would have made literally half at the state what I was making as a first year CPA at a medium sized firm) which means you have less to save yourself. And we can't have government workers unable to retire or worse, being forced into retirement without enough money to pay for themselves. Plus it's part of the deal; you know when you take a government job you are likely to rarely see impressive bonuses or out of the ordinary raises but get a nice pension. When you work for a private employer, you are significantly more likely to take home a sweet Christmas bonus or get a huge promotion but less likely to have your retirement funded entirely by the company.

Gotta look at the total package not just the wage. Plus the way the State is handling things now, do they really deserve a pay increase? Ever try to get through to a major agency by phone? "I am sorry we are experiencing an unusual call volume", yeah right. How long is your wait at a grocery store, and you don't need to make an appointment VS at the DMV? I spend less time in my Doctor's waiting room that at the CA DMV.

I'm sorry, but this is just nonsensical. Because you failed to schedule your DMV visit online, NO government employee deserves a reasonable raise to try to catch up with inflation? Have you ever gone to a restaurant and had to leave because no one ever came over to take your order? Should we now get rid of the national minimum wage for waiters?

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by zdg

Right, but that's because historically government jobs pay less than the same job in the private sector (ask any CPA who works for the state; I would have made literally half at the state what I was making as a first year CPA at a medium sized firm) which means you have less to save yourself. And we can't have government workers unable to retire or worse, being forced into retirement without enough money to pay for themselves. Plus it's part of the deal; you know when you take a government job you are likely to rarely see impressive bonuses or out of the ordinary raises but get a nice pension. When you work for a private employer, you are significantly more likely to take home a sweet Christmas bonus or get a huge promotion but less likely to have your retirement funded entirely by the company.

Right again. I must admit to get annoyed when people in the private sector rant and rave against public sector retirements, police, fire and some "leader's" pensions excepted. For one thing, the average state pension is somewhere around $24K which is anything but excessive after, say, 20-25 years of work. Secondly, with a reasonable education and no less than average intelligence (above average helps), many could have made the same choice to work for government.

A major draw for many, including my wife and me, was the excellent benefits during both our working years and in retirement. We were both raising children - me with five and a single income - her as a single, working mother starting at the bottom while raising two daughters with no support, whatsoever, from their father. Yes! The benefits are and were wonderful. We also paid a lot into them every month, including our pension funds, because there really is no free lunch even for most civil servants despite rumors to the contrary