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Even most Americans admit the Iraq war is wrong and is basically war crime.
You probably think it was right to do so because the US should interfere with other countries' business and spread their so called "freedom"?
It is not about perspective. It is about minding you own fu** business. If 60 years ago the Chinese or Russian marched into US claiming to free the black people from their awful subhuman treatment under the pretext of "liberty", will you support it?
You seem to be applying a logic whereby if i support a country therefore i condone everything that country does.,,,.wrong..
As matter of fact USS liberty was deliberated attacked that left hundreds dead or injured. So far there was no single known attack from Palestenian to US military.
By the way I quit here since I have already confirmed my suspicion from some insightful posts above. Thanks guys.
Good point. The same type of attack that was the U.S. reason to join World War 2 (Pearl Harbor) was swept under the rug as a mistake when the perpetrators were Israel.
The conclusion is that the U.S. government thinks the lives of U.S. citizens are expendable if it benefits Israel.
Well let's see; my answer to this one would be; because they're a pack of terrorists given to bombing innocent civilians and smuggling weapons into Gaza. firing off missiles from within the confines of a civilian population then claiming faux outrage at the deaths of so-called innocent children when the Israeli's respond is tranparent enough for any cognitive thinker but for the ones with a racist anti-semite agenda such as......you perhaps? Hamas wouldn't recognize democracy if it blew up when they dropped it down the mortar tube.
My hope is they now feel emboldened to prosecute their conflict up a notch and get their collective heads handed to them by an Israel now free to class them as committing acts of war and free to respond with vigor while thumbing their nose at the U.N. "well you idiots gave them the recognition they needed to go off the deep end; happy now?" Taking the gloves off is something the Arabs should not want to see Israel do as they will perhaps lose more than just territory.
All those nincompoops cheering and clapping will have to reassess the validity of giving recogniton and currency to a pack of immoral jackels. The region is fixing to get hotter and the end result will be so-called Palestinians seeing their dream erode before their very eyes.
It is my belief Canadian leaders recognize this and are a voice in the wilderness. I also believe their foresight will be verified sooner rather than later as Hamas has never been long on common sense or patience.
When the whole WORLD votes to recognize the plight of the Palestinians to form their own state, can you not step back and consider that you are missing something here? Perhaps there is another side to this? You view things as "Black and While" or "Good vs. Evil", a position I would expect someone to have after being indoctrinated by American media coverage over this issue, which does not provide any history or differing perspectives. Even many more Americans, including Jewish Americans, are cutting through the BS and recognizing both sides of this issue nowadays based on personal discussions I've had with many.
The root of the issue is about land. The fact is that the UN (under US and Britain) displaced Palestinians to form a Jewish state in the Middle East. How would you feel if a superpower like the US annexed the much smaller and weaker Canada and displaced you and your family? It would get ugly and you and I would probably rebel side-by-side till the day we die, especially as we watched them build homes and thus expand their territory over your parents house or the school you went to growing up. If Palestinians didn't get support from neighbours then they would become like Native Indians in Canada, weak and marginalized. Look at Quebec as a more subtle example, Canada has been relatively very accomodating to them since inception but relations are still not good and there are still movements to separate.
I'm sure the US/Britain wish they can rewind time but we are stuck were we are today. BOTH Palestinians and Israelis are commiting horrible acts against each other, with Israelis killing 10x more than the Palestinians do despite the angle you get from the news. And yes, Israelis need to defend themselves if they are surrounded by hostile neighbours who want them out. If I was a born in Israel, I wouldn't sit there doing nothing if there was a constant threat to blow up my family in the supermarket. This is not as simple as "Black and White" but you have to look at the root of the problem, not take sides, to make sense of it and to solve it. Clinton at least tried, Bush made it worse, and Obama has not done anything.
If there's one thing that separates Americans from Canadians in my experience from living in both countries, it is that Canadians, on average, have a more objective & balanced view of the world which comes from being a smaller country. But there are some incredibly intelligent Americans who can see through the media reports as well. I am personally embarrased by Canada's stance on this issue, Harper is doing it to win some favours from the US (i.e. either a pipeline or loosening trade restrictions or something). I don't believe Harper is speaking for all Canadians at all and is tarnishing our reputation in the world. We as a country should support both Palestinians and Israelis march toward a two state solution, we should be against rockets, suicide bombers, bombing campaigns, building homes on occupied land, etc. All of it, and not take a position just to appease the US. The US/Britain created this mess, now they have to fix it, but we should not be getting our noses too deep in this. This should not be what Canada is about.
Last edited by johnathanc; 12-03-2012 at 09:10 AM..
When the whole WORLD votes to recognize the plight of the Palestinians to form their own state, can you not step back and consider that you are missing something here? Perhaps there is another side to this? You view things as "Black and While" or "Good vs. Evil", a position I would expect someone to have after being indoctrinated by American media coverage over this issue, which does not provide any history or differing perspectives. Even many more Americans, including Jewish Americans, are cutting through the BS and recognizing both sides of this issue nowadays based on personal discussions I've had with many.
The root of the issue is about land. The fact is that the UN (under US and Britain) displaced Palestinians to form a Jewish state in the Middle East. How would you feel if a superpower like the US annexed the much smaller and weaker Canada and displaced you and your family? It would get ugly and you and I would probably rebel side-by-side till the day we die, especially as we watched them build homes and thus expand their territory over your parents house or the school you went to growing up. If Palestinians didn't get support from neighbours then they would become like Native Indians in Canada, weak and marginalized. Look at Quebec as a more subtle example, Canada has been relatively very accomodating to them since inception but relations are still not good and there are still movements to separate.
I'm sure the US/Britain wish they can rewind time but we are stuck were we are today. BOTH Palestinians and Israelis are commiting horrible acts against each other, with Israelis killing 10x more than the Palestinians do despite the angle you get from the news. And yes, Israelis need to defend themselves if they are surrounded by hostile neighbours who want them out. If I was a born in Israel, I wouldn't sit there doing nothing if there was a constant threat to blow up my family in the supermarket. This is not as simple as "Black and White" but you have to look at the root of the problem, not take sides, to make sense of it and to solve it. Clinton at least tried, Bush made it worse, and Obama has not done anything.
If there's one thing that separates Americans from Canadians in my experience from living in both countries, it is that Canadians, on average, have a more objective & balanced view of the world which comes from being a smaller country. But there are some incredibly intelligent Americans who can see through the media reports as well. I am personally embarrased by Canada's stance on this issue, Harper is doing it to win some favours from the US (i.e. either a pipeline or loosening trade restrictions or something). I don't believe Harper is speaking for all Canadians at all and is tarnishing our reputation in the world. We as a country should support both Palestinians and Israelis march toward a two state solution, we should be against rockets, suicide bombers, bombing campaigns, building homes on occupied land, etc. All of it, and not take a position just to appease the US. The US/Britain created this mess, now they have to fix it, but we should not be getting our noses too deep in this. This should not be what Canada is about.
Well firstly I was not aware that a U.N. majority represented the WHOLE WORLD.
Secondly I'd offer the opinion that political machinations by voting parties within the U.N. are not inidicative of what their citizens actually believe or think as you yourself attempt to point out below in another para regarding Canada's position.
Thirdly that stupid organization gave Qaddafi legitimacy at the very instant he was sponsoring terrorism around the globe as just one example of the many available of how dysfunctional the U.N's recognition and voting precepts have been for quite some time now.
Likening this issue to the examples you state of Canada's aboriginals and the Quebec nonsense is a fail as for the party of the first part; they are exactly where their elected leaders have taken them and for the party of the second part they have found a formulae that has worked very well with one small detour into violence that came back to bite them big time so they revert to the norm of pestering like a small child at the dinner table that refuses to eat their veggies but demand two helpings of dessert.
Good vs Evil is exactly the issue, as it should be for the U.N. but alas that org. has demonstrated a complete disregard for any moral imperative to enter into it's mandate.
As a democracy we elect leaders to state our position on any number of issues and you will get the chance to repudiate their position when the next election comes around.
One must also remember that Canada played a significant role in the creation of this present boondoggle by making political decisions that were mirroring the status-quo at the time of Israel's creation. In a very real sense we are now at the crossroads that our leaders of yore headed us down the road to in the late 40's. Laying this solely at the feet of the U.K. and the U.S. is slightly disingenuous. Sucks to be accountable but there you have it.
That story about the Israelis attacking the USS Liberty knowing it was an American ship is cow chips! The Israelis had no motive to do so.
The primary reason this conspiracy theory has remained alive all these decades is because many people have a deep-seated belief that Jews are scheming and untrustworthy people by nature.
Well firstly I was not aware that a U.N. majority represented the WHOLE WORLD.
The vast majority of the world wants the Palestinians to have their own state, they want Israel to co-exist and live in peace. One must live in a very small world devoid of any international exposure if one doesn't believe this. The recent vote signals this and it's indisputable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan
Secondly I'd offer the opinion that political machinations by voting parties within the U.N. are not inidicative of what their citizens actually believe or think as you yourself attempt to point out below in another para regarding Canada's position.
I agree. I don't think many Canadians would support Harper's position on this issue, at least to the degree to which he is taking. But spend some time in France, UK, China, etc. and talk to everyday people and you will see what they think. They do not think about this issue the same way an American (not all Americans mind you) does. And most Canadians do not want to get involved in nation building, toppling foreign governments, and getting our noses in the Arab-Israeli conflict, especially where we unequivocally start taking sides instead of working towards peace with both parties. This is the Canada I have always known and admired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan
Thirdly that stupid organization gave Qaddafi legitimacy at the very instant he was sponsoring terrorism around the globe as just one example of the many available of how dysfunctional the U.N's recognition and voting precepts have been for quite some time now.
UN is not perfect but it remains a forum for the world to get together to work towards peace and security. You or I may not like everything that comes out of it but you cannot dismiss the whole organization as stupid or irrelvant just because you disagree with something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan
Likening this issue to the examples you state of Canada's aboriginals and the Quebec nonsense is a fail as for the party of the first part; they are exactly where their elected leaders have taken them and for the party of the second part they have found a formulae that has worked very well with one small detour into violence that came back to bite them big time so they revert to the norm of pestering like a small child at the dinner table that refuses to eat their veggies but demand two helpings of dessert.
Never said they were the same at all. My point is that when you occupy the land of others (Natives) or govern another ethnic group (French), it's really really really hard. And we have some hard issues in a very peaceful country in Canada. I can only imagine how much more intense 100x these issue are in a less developed region of the world, especially where a foreign power is intervening, people are displaced and are at war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan
Good vs Evil is exactly the issue, as it should be for the U.N. but alas that org. has demonstrated a complete disregard for any moral imperative to enter into it's mandate.
As a democracy we elect leaders to state our position on any number of issues and you will get the chance to repudiate their position when the next election comes around.
Good vs. Evil is not the issue. I told you it's about land and rights. You are watching too much TV and not asking enough hard questions. You are positional and you don't need to be. Palesinians have a point, they lived there first before their land was carved out by a foreign power. How can an informed person ignore this? Israelis deserve to live in peace as well and they are not going anywhere. If anything, Canada should be advocating a peaceful means to a two state solution. What do you advocate? More attacks, murder, violence, etc? It is impossible that we reach a two state solution through further violence, nor is it moral.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan
One must also remember that Canada played a significant role in the creation of this present boondoggle by making political decisions that were mirroring the status-quo at the time of Israel's creation. In a very real sense we are now at the crossroads that our leaders of yore headed us down the road to in the late 40's. Laying this solely at the feet of the U.K. and the U.S. is slightly disingenuous. Sucks to be accountable but there you have it.
Everyone knows the UK and US played the leading role in the creation of Israel. Honestly, Canada is too small to have had any impact on what was going on. We did not and do not have an influencial voice at the table on this issue or any geopolitical issue outside of our borders. To suggest otherwise is ludacris.
Last edited by johnathanc; 12-03-2012 at 11:27 AM..
Apparently Israel is a lunatic state and has no intention of have a two-state solution.
After the vote to upgrade the status of the Palestinians at the UN, Israel announced plans for 3,000 more housing units in contested areas east of Jerusalem and around the West Bank.
A press officer for UN Secretary General said that construction “would represent an almost fatal blow to remaining chances of securing a two-state solution.”
It doesn't seem to be the case Israel is threatened by its dangerous neighbours. It is at least as aggresive and belligerent if not more, than the Arab countries nearby.
I don't know why it means that "Israel is our ally". Explain why does Canada need such an ally if not for the purpose of sucking up to Washington?
Last edited by botticelli; 12-03-2012 at 02:15 PM..
Why not call up the PM's Office and ask them why Israel is our ally.then post the response
I already indicated my answer in the "if" part.
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