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I know you may not want to "assume full responsibility" for your mom, you don't WANT to take over their finances, but the more you do take over -- the more organized things will be, the more ORDERLY things will be. It's REALLY steep and overwhelming in the beginning, but eventually the more things you accomplish, the "more steady? the road becomes -- if only because the more things you will have laid the ground work for.
Since your dad is expected to pass. I'd get the estate in order.
Having the POA in place -- doesn't mean you need to invoke it. But having handy is key.
The more phone calls you make the more you'll learn about various programs and housing options (facilities).
ANY chance of selling the house and them both moving closer to you? Not that that is the answer to everything, either.
I know you may not want to "assume full responsibility" for your mom, you don't WANT to take over their finances, but the more you do take over -- the more organized things will be, the more ORDERLY things will be. It's REALLY steep and overwhelming in the beginning, but eventually the more things you accomplish, the "more steady? the road becomes -- if only because the more things you will have laid the ground work for.
Since your dad is expected to pass. I'd get the estate in order.
Having the POA in place -- doesn't mean you need to invoke it. But having handy is key.
The more phone calls you make the more you'll learn about various programs and housing options (facilities).
ANY chance of selling the house and them both moving closer to you? Not that that is the answer to everything, either.
Hope the estate planning mean goes well.
Well, all is going horribly. My mother cancelled the estate planning meeting. She told me that she didn't see how it would benefit her and would be a waste of money. I aked her if she'd considered getting life insurance, and she told me that she'd "been advised" that she didn't need it and that it was a waste of money. So I told her that when she eventually passes, it will be a huge mess, go to Probate Court, and that there would most likely be nor funeral or burial for her because no one would have access to her money (if there were any left) and no one, including me, is going to take out a loan to pay for it all. She became angry, told me I was making things up and trying to scare her, told me that she thinks I'm trying to take all her things and control her life, and said she can take care of herself. Or that her cousin will take care of her. A cousin who is in her upper 70s, lives an hour away, and hasn't spoken to her since 2003.
My mom won't sign a POA and made it quite clear that she wants me to leave her alone. She has my brother temporarily in a nursing home and he's afraid he'll be homeless, but I won't let that happen. He's had similar conversations with my mother, expressing concern about my parent's lack of estate planning and her strage behavior. He said she just gets mad and yells at him. She did the same with me and hung up on me.
I don't think you can assume responsibility for someone who not only refuses help, but treats you like dirt. She has no friends, little family, and the family that knows her knows that she's difficult and doesn't want to deal with her. She's going to end up alone in her home and in trouble. She walks with a cane (broke a hip at age 65) and although she's not that old (70), she acts more like a 90 year old. Her hoarding issues have never been dealt with, and that's probably a lot of why she refuses to leave her house.
Last edited by denverian; 03-14-2014 at 08:51 AM..
I can think of a few things for you to do now. I am so sorry for this mess you have. I know these are hard questions.
You are correct. Your mom needs a proper exam. I wonder if she is not suffering some sort of dementia, but perhaps she is on so many meds, her mental processes aren't working well. So, she needs to get to a doc, preferably a Geriatrician. She needs a current diagnosis, and possibly her meds should be adjusted.
I want you to see an elder attorney ASAP, in your parents' home state, to help you see what steps you need to take. This is the sort of thing they help you with, and these guys have probably seen it all. If you can't make the trip in person, perhaps you could set up a telephone consult.
Ask the attorney about obtaining a POA for your mom and dad. One or both will have to sign this for it to be legal. The attorney will know.
You can also consult the dept. of aging in the town where your parents live. They are able to navigate the local system. So, getting a social worker to help you would be a help to you.
For your brother, you need to place him, I think. You might want to contact a different state funded agency for that. Every state has a web page with contact information for the different agencies. Usually the state or localities, will have published a booklet of numbers and contact information for different agencies that can help. If all else fails, call the local United Way to find out the proper agency for your brother. If your brother is older, then he might also benefit from help from the dept. of aging.
Since your mother will be a widow of wartime vet, she might at some time qualify for VA benefits, but she will have to have few assets, and she would also have to be home bound.
Handling the affairs of your parents will be difficult. But if you get advice from an elder attorney in the state your parents live in, he or she might be able to give you steps to follow, which will give you hope.
Good luck!
Thank you! As mentioned in my post above, all is going horribly. My mom told me to mind my own business, not worry about her, and has cut me off. I brought up the medication issues and the idea that a "fresh look" at what she's taking would be a good idea. This made her very angry and defensive. No chance of her doing that voluntarily. She thinks I'm trying to take her money and "things", even though I just wanted to transition her into assisted living. She blatantly lied to me, saying that she never "got money" when her mother and father died. My grandmother passed last summer and my grandfather had set up a trust and investments, and my mom received a check for over $90K from the estate just 3 months ago. Her step-sister hand delivered it to her and let me know about it. When I called my mother on that lie, she had nothing to say.
She either has dementia, psychological problems, drug issues, or a combination of all three. She yelled at me, saying it wasn't up to me to decide to put her in a home. I'm pretty sure she does qualify for a VA benefit (aid and attendance?) where someone could at least come to the house to check on her. I'll ask their VA social worker about that. My brother is sick of dealing with her and just wants away from her at this point. This whole thing has stressed me out so much, I'm going to schedule time with a therapist. My mom has managed, as she always does, to make it all "about her", when the focus should be on my dad dying. It sounds like he's in horrible condition and she still makes him go out and run errands for her. I haven't been able to talk to him in a couple weeks.
I've left messages for a couple VA reps to contact me to help find a home for my brother here in my city. So far, I haven't found anything great for him.
Can you work on approaching your father -- about protecting his estate for your brother? Would that angle of saying, "You know dad, "joe" should be protected, he deserves that.
I know you said dad defers to your mom, but perhaps working on him, on the brother's behalf could eventually turn him around.
I'd also ask an attorney or research estate laws in their state - governing someone who dies with no will -- intestate laws). Does Dad have a will? If so, what does it say? What arrangements are made for your brother (and mom).
For example in PA, a will can limit the amount of the estate a wife gets. She can't be cut out altogether, but her part can be limited, so the rest could be left to you and your brother. For example if there's NO will your mom (the spouse) would inherits the first $30,000 of intestate property, plus 1/2 of the balance -- and descendants (you and your brother) inherit everything else.
WITH a will I think the spouses inheritance could be cut to a minimum of at least one-third.
I think we already know your mom won't be capable of handling the estate.
Can you work on approaching your father -- about protecting his estate for your brother? Would that angle of saying, "You know dad, "joe" should be protected, he deserves that.
I know you said dad defers to your mom, but perhaps working on him, on the brother's behalf could eventually turn him around.
I'd also ask an attorney or research estate laws in their state - governing someone who dies with no will -- intestate laws). Does Dad have a will? If so, what does it say? What arrangements are made for your brother (and mom).
For example in PA, a will can limit the amount of the estate a wife gets. She can't be cut out altogether, but her part can be limited, so the rest could be left to you and your brother. For example if there's NO will your mom (the spouse) would inherits the first $30,000 of intestate property, plus 1/2 of the balance -- and descendants (you and your brother) inherit everything else.
WITH a will I think the spouses inheritance could be cut to a minimum of at least one-third.
I think we already know your mom won't be capable of handling the estate.
My dad has no will. He does have life insurance from the job he retired from, but outside of that, he's quite ignorant regarding estate planning. He came from a poor family and no one ever had wills or anything because there was never anything left. He's made no arrangements for my mom and brother other than my mom will get his pension and social security. I know there is an IRA, possibly a few CDs, and some savings (probably in the range of $50K, by my guess). The house has at least $75K in equity. That's all I know about. They have never been open about their finances with me.
My dad is extremely sick and bed-ridden. Even when he was better, he knew they needed to do the estate planning, but always deferred to my mother because she gets very angry if anyone crosses her.
I assumed that since everything is in his and her name, there would be no probate settlement when he passes. The only thing they've done is add me to the title of their house, and they added me to their bank account(s). I'm not sure what that really does for me. I know that if my mom dies and the IRA is still there, I'm next in line for that.
She has my brother temporarily in a nursing home and he's afraid he'll be homeless, but I won't let that happen.
You've said he's wasted money or something to that effect....Is he mentally deficient in any way, or just physically ill?
I know there can be shades of grey in all this, but is he mentally capable of handle ing his affairs and just won't or doesn't make the best decisions....or is he INcapable of doing that?
If HE IS capable, how does your mom "have him in a nursing home." Has he been just acquiescing to her?
WOULD he 'break free" of your mom's control if you were to make arrangements for him to move closer to you?
Only you can decide how much you can fight for people who won't take the help being offered.
It may be small consolation, but at least you know that when your dad passes, or then eventually your mom passes -- there could be a mess to deal with. And at least is won't be a surprise. You'll know it's coming. Sometimes the mental awareness and acceptance of what's to come is consolation because a person isn't hit with it out of the blue. Because of what you're dealing with now -- the WORST of the angst and anger MIGHT be over and at that point perhaps by then "it just is what it is."
You've said he's wasted money or something to that effect....Is he mentally deficient in any way, or just physically ill?
I know there can be shades of grey in all this, but is he mentally capable of handle ing his affairs and just won't or doesn't make the best decisions....or is he INcapable of doing that?
If HE IS capable, how does your mom "have him in a nursing home." Has he been just acquiescing to her?
WOULD he 'break free" of your mom's control if you were to make arrangements for him to move closer to you?
Only you can decide how much you can fight for people who won't take the help being offered.
It may be small consolation, but at least you know that when your dad passes, or then eventually your mom passes -- there could be a mess to deal with. And at least is won't be a surprise. You'll know it's coming. Sometimes the mental awareness and acceptance of what's to come is consolation because a person isn't hit with it out of the blue. Because of what you're dealing with now -- the WORST of the angst and anger MIGHT be over and at that point perhaps by then "it just is what it is."
All the best.
Thank you for the kind words. My brother is kind of "slow" and has learning disabilities, so he really can't be trusted with his own finances. I know my parents have bailed him out repeatedly over the years, and that's what scares me about becoming his caretaker. He gets about $2500 a month from SSDI and a VA benefit, and has no bills other than phone. Yet he'll go into the hole some months, spending more than he gets. If I move him to be near me, I can't be bailing him out. I have a family and little kids and all those expenses (we're doing much better now, but recovering from the recession). So my only thought is that he'd have to agree to me being in control of his money to ensure rent is paid. I'd put him on an allowance and then pay his rent, utilities and car insurance, plus put a little into savings for him.
The reason he's in a nursing home is because he was in the hospital and then they had him go to a nursing home for a few weeks because he needs physical therapy, and sometimes gets psychological counseling. He sufferes from depression and has pain issues. So I don't think my mom put him in the nursing home, but she may have either suggested getting approved for a few weeks because she wanted him out of the house long enough to have the carpet pulled up in his basement apartment and have it replaced with some other flooring. Apparently he had ruined all the carpet somehow. But she did make it clear to me that she wanted him out of the house for a while. He doesn't clean anything, and my parents hadn't been helping him clean or do laundry for a long time, so his basement apartment had become quite filthy and my mom said she had been cleaning it just the other day.
So the issue is that he's quite a handful to take care of. He has physical issues, has to go to the hospital a lot, sufferes from pain and depression, makes poor decisions, doesn't even try to clean up after himself (just throws trash on the floor, buys new pots and pans rather than cleaning dirty ones, etc.) and would be best off in an assited living facility. But that will take the majority of his money. My other option is to put him in an apartment 4 blocks from our house where the rent is about $1000 a month. It would be a very nice 1bd. apt., and if he's on his own, he would then qualify for further VA benefits that would pay for house cleaning, someone to come in and help him bathe, and someone to come in for physical therapy. But I fear he'd be rather isolated, as he is now in my parent's house, and could get himself into trouble.
As for my mom, I think she's just made it clear that she will be taking the more difficult path for the rest of her life. She has said in the past that she didn't want my brother to inherit anything, because he's not responsible enough to handle money, and that their wishes was that everything would go to me and I would be responsible for him. Well, since she refuses to do even a will, if there is anything left when she dies, it would be split evenly between my brother and me. I'm also concerned that with my name being on the title to their house, if she stops paying the mortgage someday, they'll come after me. I suppose since they put me on their bank account, I could then access her pension/SS money and pay it, if need be. Hopefully that doesn't come back to bite me in the butt someday. But yes, there will be a huge mess after she dies, which she doesn't understand. All she cares about is herself and her things. Considering her hoarding issues, I would imagine that she'll go back to that full time after my dad dies. Shopping and buying things that are "deals" is one of her "drugs" she uses to find happiness. Her "things" are more important to her than me, my brother, or even my dad. All I can do is work on myself, figuring out what I can do for my brother, and letting her go. She hasn't really cared for me in many years, or even appeard to have the slightest concern for me, so I don't know why I've been stressed out about her. She's finally going to have to deal with the consequences of her behavior and figure it out on her own.
Apparently he had ruined all the carpet somehow. But she did make it clear to me that she wanted him out of the house for a while. He doesn't clean anything, and my parents hadn't been helping him clean or do laundry for a long time, so his basement apartment had become quite filthy
I know nothing about Assisted Living Facilities.....and whether you can stay if you let your place (your room/unit/apt) get filthy or hoarded up or whatever. Someone else would know about that? Do they do the cleaning? Can they have you removed for 'sanitation' reasons? If he doesn't keep his place clean and "just throws trash on the floor," I'd definitely want to know about that.
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and if he's on his own, he would then qualify for further VA benefits that would pay for house cleaning, someone to come in and help him bathe, and someone to come in for physical therapy.
Make sure you get the GROSS income limits for qualifying for that additional help....that his gross income of 2,500 PLUS the VA benefit don't put him over income limits (if there are any for those programs).
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I'm also concerned that with my name being on the title to their house, if she stops paying the mortgage someday, they'll come after me.
IF you're not on the MORTGAGE I don't think they can come oafter you for money. I believe the worst that could happen in foreclosure is that as a name on the deed you'd lose the house (you "interest" in the property). But remember, because your not on the mortgage, you likely may not get any mortgage correspondence or foreclosure notices either -- so unless mom tells you -- you might not know there IS an issue with the mortgage until it's well into the foreclosure process. I saw a note about a person in this very same situation (on a deed, but not the mortgage) and she said she wanted to pay to keep it out of foreclosure or at least find out the status of the note -- and because she wasn't on the mortgage the mortgage company wouldn't discuss the situation with her.
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I suppose since they put me on their bank account, I could then access her pension/SS money and pay it, if need be. Hopefully that doesn't come back to bite me in the butt someday.
I wouldn't do anything with her accounts (your joint accounts) without a POA in my possession. In my state as for joint accounts....regardless of whose NAMES are on the account courts can also look at WHOSE money is actually going INTO the account. If both your names are on it -- but clearly it's only your mom's money going into the account, you COULD possibly be vulnerable to accusations IF she accuses you of anything. You'd be innocent, but who needs the hassle of defending yourself for acting in HER behalf.
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I don't know why I've been stressed out about her. She's finally going to have to deal with the consequences of her behavior and figure it out on her own.
Uh, you're stressed because she's your mom. And even in situations where the relationship hasn't been good, most people still struggle -- on some level -- with the process of accepting that they may have to cut mom loose. You wouldn't be a decent person if you could just do that and NOT be upset about it at least a little.
It sounds like you're making your way through what's a difficult process....and you're holding it together. So give yourself creidt for that, and be good to yourself. Two of my favorite sayings are:
-- Don't beat yourself up about things, because there are plenty of people standing in line to do that for free. YOU don't need to be one of them.
-- Do your due diligence and make the best decision you can with the best information available at the time.
I know nothing about Assisted Living Facilities.....and whether you can stay if you let your place (your room/unit/apt) get filthy or hoarded up or whatever. Someone else would know about that? Do they do the cleaning? Can they have you removed for 'sanitation' reasons? If he doesn't keep his place clean and "just throws trash on the floor," I'd definitely want to know about that.
Make sure you get the GROSS income limits for qualifying for that additional help....that his gross income of 2,500 PLUS the VA benefit don't put him over income limits (if there are any for those programs).
IF you're not on the MORTGAGE I don't think they can come oafter you for money. I believe the worst that could happen in foreclosure is that as a name on the deed you'd lose the house (you "interest" in the property). But remember, because your not on the mortgage, you likely may not get any mortgage correspondence or foreclosure notices either -- so unless mom tells you -- you might not know there IS an issue with the mortgage until it's well into the foreclosure process. I saw a note about a person in this very same situation (on a deed, but not the mortgage) and she said she wanted to pay to keep it out of foreclosure or at least find out the status of the note -- and because she wasn't on the mortgage the mortgage company wouldn't discuss the situation with her.
I wouldn't do anything with her accounts (your joint accounts) without a POA in my possession. In my state as for joint accounts....regardless of whose NAMES are on the account courts can also look at WHOSE money is actually going INTO the account. If both your names are on it -- but clearly it's only your mom's money going into the account, you COULD possibly be vulnerable to accusations IF she accuses you of anything. You'd be innocent, but who needs the hassle of defending yourself for acting in HER behalf.
Uh, you're stressed because she's your mom. And even in situations where the relationship hasn't been good, most people still struggle -- on some level -- with the process of accepting that they may have to cut mom loose. You wouldn't be a decent person if you could just do that and NOT be upset about it at least a little.
It sounds like you're making your way through what's a difficult process....and you're holding it together. So give yourself creidt for that, and be good to yourself. Two of my favorite sayings are:
-- Don't beat yourself up about things, because there are plenty of people standing in line to do that for free. YOU don't need to be one of them.
-- Do your due diligence and make the best decision you can with the best information available at the time.
My brother isn't in assisited living. His basement apartment is in my parent's house (there's a lift for him to get down there). My parents haven't been caring for him very well in recent years, and he needs to leave. He currently pays my mom $1000 a month "rent" that she uses to pay the $1200 mortgage. He gets SSDI and a VA benefit that total about $2500 per month. All his health care is pain in full by the VA (one thing that's positive in this whole mess!) and pays for someone to come to their house and help him bathe a few times per week and to do physical therapy. He has many health issues (in a wheelchair, one kidney, he uses a catheder, etc.) and keeps getting bad infections and has to go to the hospital. I'm kind of confused as to what his true needs are. Assisted living, or nursing home?? Anyway, the VA won't approve further home care benefits because he lives with his (our) parents. If he's on his own, in an apartment or assisted living, then he can receive further aid and attendance benefits that would pay to have a housecleaner.
Correct, I'm not on the mortgage, just the deed. And I agree that I wouldn't touch her money without some legal backup. I've heard horror stories about mothers turning on their children because of their demensia and thinking their children have turned on them.
Yeah, I do care about her. She may not have been the perfect mother, but she fed us healthy food as kids, made sure we got good grades, and certainly wasn't abusive. I keep getting these "flashbacks" from years ago when my mom was very normal and doing something with me where it was pleasant. Like the time she took me to the DMV to get my license plates for my first car, and then took me out to lunch afterward. There were very few situations where we did things together, and we really never bonded as adults. Once I left home at age 19, it seemed like I was "out of sight, out of mind" for her.
She's not one to reach out to people or express concern for others. I'd say that in the past 15 years, her greatest concern has been for herself and ther material things. She's very much like the people on "Hoarders" where their family members will say the same thing about their hoarder parents. And the hoarding is a symptom of some other psychological problem that has never been addressed. My mom refuses to seek any further psychological help and was offended by me even bringing it up. The root of the problem may be that she lacks the social skills to be a friend to anyone, including her own family. She never takes any blame for anything, never apologizes for anything, never reaches out to anyone, and deflects all her problems onto others. She has defined herself by medical problems of my brother, and her own medical problems, and uses those problems to try and get attention and pity.
I've also had strange thoughts of her being on her own, wandering around WalMart, crying to strangers. This is how I see her in the near future. She'll most likely tell people that her own family has abandoned her and doesn't care about her. She already tells everyone that my brother and I are "mean" to her.
My brother isn't in assisited living. His basement apartment is in my parent's house (there's a lift for him to get down there)
Yes I know. I was speaking of the eventuality of you getting him into assisted living and whether he could stay there if -- after warnings -- he continued to trash his place like a pig sty.
I was just saying that in ALFs I don't know whether you can just junk up your room/unit and the admin won't have something to say about that. Can they 'ask you to leave?' or maybe even make moves to have you removed?
If you know he doesn't keep his place up. I just thought it might be something to be mindful of. That's all. To be fair to them and other residents.
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