RIM loses 43% market share/halts trading - any surprise?

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by shmoov_groovzsd

Its a shame, their engineering is top notch and it takes a long time to make great quality devices. In the game of convergence devices, RIM lost. More and more companies HAVE DITCHED the bb in favor of iPhones or subsidizing personal phones for both business and personal that meet requirements.

*Fixed*


This is how it went down at my job. We had Palms.
One guy wanted a BB. BB offered ONE free license with BB Profesional Server. Set him up.
He loved it.
Bought 5 more licenses (per license fees on phones? Really RIM? Ya' didn't think that might be a dated way to do things?)
5 more people got BB's... just a short 3 years later ONLY that original employee remains with BB. And he's in my office all the time "Anything new announced yet?".
Yea... trading is about to be halted, would you let me get you an iPhone already???

[K-Luv]

Originally Posted by 20yrsinBranson

I love Blackberry. However, they are stubborn and convinced that their way is the only way. When the smartphone revolution began, they should have dumped their OS and gone with Android to remain competitive in the market.

It's not too late for them, if they would just give up on the idea that they need to have a proprietary OS. They are cutting their own throat.

20yrsinBranson

Uh, Blackberry 10 looks promising and many early reviews are positive.

Also, Blackberry is still fairly popular in Indonesia and other markets around the globe. Also, do to RIMs encryption capabilities, and the fact that Blackberry's are phone first, productivity tool second, and toy last makes Blackberry's still relatively popular in the coorporate world. Definitely not as much as in the past, but still a decent amount.

To me, the 9900s are the perfect smart phone. The physical keyboard simply cannot be beat. Plus, the trackball and touchscreen, brilliant! I actually like the OS and the way things are laid out. It is far more intuitive and simple and generally easier to get things done.

Originally Posted by Miker2069

The very sad thing, is that they *were* the iphone before the iphone. Meaning, they controlled the entire experience (hardware, software, OS). That's the Apple model. And RIM *had* the corporate market like 99.9% of it. I watched MS and IBM and everyone else coming in and bang their heads on getting push technology to work using ActiveSync. RIM laughed in the background and MS/IBM et al slowly but steadily made it work. Now I don't ned a Blackberry Enterprise Server, I can use my cool iphone and get push and connect securely to my companies mail system. My iPad refuses to recognize my Droid Incredible, and the MacBook will not transfer music.

Besides, I am addicted to Word Mole

What's even worse, is that middle mgmt in RIM saw this light years ago and pleaded with upper mgmt. Upper Mgmts response to to shuffle the chairs and and fire the trouble makers. Saw this from like 3 years ago...No surprise

You said the key word: cool. Blackberry's were king because they were a status symbol. iPhones never had that "status", nor anything close to it, but iPhones were/are definitely the cooler phones. They had the cool status.

Uh, Blackberry 10 looks promising and many early reviews are positive.

BB 10 looks like vaporware, actually. It's looking increasingly unlikely that it will ever ship. There's not really much of anything to give a positive review, since RIM still hasn't managed to even ship a beta.

It's time to stick a fork in RIM. Instead of using their huge head start to stay ahead of the competition, they stagnated and let everyone else pass them by. Now they're delaying even more, putting them even further behind their competitors. Given how long it took them to get things like email (nearly a year) and BBM (still MIA) running on the Playbook, it would seem that either their backend is also a mess or their remaining developers are completely incompetent (or both).

[K-Luv]

Originally Posted by JasonF

BB 10 looks like vaporware, actually. It's looking increasingly unlikely that it will ever ship. There's not really much of anything to give a positive review, since RIM still hasn't managed to even ship a beta.

It's time to stick a fork in RIM. Instead of using their huge head start to stay ahead of the competition, they stagnated and let everyone else pass them by. Now they're delaying even more, putting them even further behind their competitors. Given how long it took them to get things like email (nearly a year) and BBM (still MIA) running on the Playbook, it would seem that either their backend is also a mess or their remaining developers are completely incompetent (or both).

Blackberry will never regain their once-held dominance, and that is primarily because of the abundance of the Android OS and phones that run it. There was also no way that BB could stay on top, either. And that is what many people seem to miss when they talk about RIMs "demise".

Yes, RIM made a few bad decisions, but look at their core audience even when they were king: the corporate world and people who wanted that "status". BBs were part status symbol and part cool factor. Then the iPhone came out and changed all that forever. Then the G1 (Android) came out on T-Mobile, which was followed by Android phones across all carriers.

What the iPhone and Android phones do is entertainment. They are entertainment devices first and foremost. Blackberry's have always been phone/messaging/email devices first.

So, that is why RIM will never regain the lead, or even come close let alone have been able to hold it. If Android was not in the picture, or if it was limited to the original one phone on T-Mo, RIM would have a better chance. But everyone keeps missing the point of what a Blackberry is and why there is a small, but highly dedicated group of Crackberry users.

Blackberry users are the type who want a smartphone, but do not need, or want, 1000s of apps. They want phones that are phones with a handful of other capabilities. They also really dig BBM.

RIM also has a large (but not huge) base of users who use BBs for security purposes. They will probably continue to use BBs well into the future.

RIM is going to focus on releasing a phone that will retain current Blackberry users while [hopefully] attracting new customers who are willing to give them a chance. RIM is in the process of rebranding, well, their whole image. And that will obviously take some time.

Blackberrys are still fairly strong in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and South America. I believe they were somewhere near 25% of total sales by the end of 2011 in the U.K. alone. Also, RIM sold 208 million Blackberrys in Canada during 2011, while Apple sold 285 million. Yeah, 80 million or so is a lot of phones, but it's obvious RIM has not fallen off the radar in Canada, either. They are pretty much only "dead" in the U.S.

So why would they stick a fork in it?

[K-Luv]

...but I am kinda doubting a January release. March, perhaps.

[shmoov_groovzsd]

Originally Posted by K-Luv

Blackberry will never regain their once-held dominance, and that is primarily because of the abundance of the Android OS and phones that run it. There was also no way that BB could stay on top, either. And that is what many people seem to miss when they talk about RIMs "demise".

Yes, RIM made a few bad decisions, but look at their core audience even when they were king: the corporate world and people who wanted that "status". BBs were part status symbol and part cool factor. Then the iPhone came out and changed all that forever. Then the G1 (Android) came out on T-Mobile, which was followed by Android phones across all carriers.

What the iPhone and Android phones do is entertainment. They are entertainment devices first and foremost. Blackberry's have always been phone/messaging/email devices first.

So, that is why RIM will never regain the lead, or even come close let alone have been able to hold it. If Android was not in the picture, or if it was limited to the original one phone on T-Mo, RIM would have a better chance. But everyone keeps missing the point of what a Blackberry is and why there is a small, but highly dedicated group of Crackberry users.

Blackberry users are the type who want a smartphone, but do not need, or want, 1000s of apps. They want phones that are phones with a handful of other capabilities. They also really dig BBM.

RIM also has a large (but not huge) base of users who use BBs for security purposes. They will probably continue to use BBs well into the future.

RIM is going to focus on releasing a phone that will retain current Blackberry users while [hopefully] attracting new customers who are willing to give them a chance. RIM is in the process of rebranding, well, their whole image. And that will obviously take some time.

Blackberrys are still fairly strong in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and South America. I believe they were somewhere near 25% of total sales by the end of 2011 in the U.K. alone. Also, RIM sold 208 million Blackberrys in Canada during 2011, while Apple sold 285 million. Yeah, 80 million or so is a lot of phones, but it's obvious RIM has not fallen off the radar in Canada, either. They are pretty much only "dead" in the U.S.

So why would they stick a fork in it?

I agree with most of this. Being traded on the NASDAQ and being popular everywhere else is not good for RIM in the long run. The good news is that they are aware of this now rather than later as opposed to how Nokia treated the US market.
The biggest hurdle I see right now for RIM is their strength. Security. A company like MSFT can blow them out of the water with this once they zero in on it (and they are.)
Unless RIM have the power to handle security in the form of partnerships with cloud storage and services, they are dead. No two ways about it. Business users need that level of security AND access (Sharepoint type) in the future as it becomes the norm.

I like RIM, I think they have some incredibly sturdy and well designed/built devices. Its just sad, that when it comes down to numbers in investments it can turn really quickly.

BB10 looks promising and I dont think it is vaporware. Its just going to be niche and expand services and UI to that niche market that are loyal to BB, but want just a little more.

[K-Luv]

Originally Posted by shmoov_groovzsd

I agree with most of this. Being traded on the NASDAQ and being popular everywhere else is not good for RIM in the long run. The good news is that they are aware of this now rather than later as opposed to how Nokia treated the US market.
The biggest hurdle I see right now for RIM is their strength. Security. A company like MSFT can blow them out of the water with this once they zero in on it (and they are.)
Unless RIM have the power to handle security in the form of partnerships with cloud storage and services, they are dead. No two ways about it. Business users need that level of security AND access (Sharepoint type) in the future as it becomes the norm.

I like RIM, I think they have some incredibly sturdy and well designed/built devices. Its just sad, that when it comes down to numbers in investments it can turn really quickly.

BB10 looks promising and I dont think it is vaporware. Its just going to be niche and expand services and UI to that niche market that are loyal to BB, but want just a little more.

I don't think it is vaporware, either. It has been reported the development teams have completed all of their projects and the OS has been assembled. They are just working out a few kinks.

As I have stated, Blackberry will never go back to their glory days, but Blackberry 10 is looking very promising in the sense that it can attract new users. The real test will be if they can retain current users. In order to do that, they will need to keep key OS7 (and previous) functionality integrated into the OS instead of treating them as apps like iOS and Android tend to do. Attaching a file, document, or picture to an email or text message feels as if it is a part of the phone instead of going from one app to another.

As for security, Blackberry is still king in this regard, but this is something that could change rapidly. Security features in the iPhone and on [certain] Android devices keeps on improving. I believe that even the new Windows phones are doing well with their security features, too.

One of the new features that I think will be be a hit for RIM is that Blackberry 10 will have NFC functionality that can be set to be on when the phone is off or battery dead.

I think that it is unfair and not practical to use sales of the iPhone and/or Android in the U.S. as the matrix in which to base the success or demise of RIM.

What the iPhone and Android phones do is entertainment. They are entertainment devices first and foremost. Blackberry's have always been phone/messaging/email devices first.

Except that the iPhone and Android devices are also perfectly capable of doing phone/messaging/email. They also happen to have a ton of apps for them to do other things. More functionality is not a downside.

RIM is failing because they completely missed the consumer market, and years later still haven't managed to ship a device that people might actually want over an Android or iOS device. Now they find themselves threatened in the business market as iOS and Android gain more and more security/management features - hence why you see companies and some government agencies dumping RIM in favor of Apple and Android devices.

RIM is in the process of rebranding, well, their whole image. And that will obviously take some time.

RIM is in the process of trying to put together an OS that isn't an antiquated piece of junk, and that will run on devices that aren't a year or two behind their competitors. RIM completely missed what was happening in a market that they dominated, and they still haven't managed to put together response to Apple. In that time, both Google and Microsoft have managed to ship, and Android has been able to become dominant.

Blackberrys are still fairly strong in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and South America.

Yes, they are. They're strong(ish) in low margin, low profit developing nations. They haven't completely died in Europe, but they're clearly facing stiff competition. Unfortunately for RIM (and Nokia), selling crappy devices in emerging markets turns out to not actually keep the lights on.

Also, RIM sold 208 million Blackberrys in Canada during 2011, while Apple sold 285 million. Yeah, 80 million or so is a lot of phones, but it's obvious RIM has not fallen off the radar in Canada, either.

You're missing a couple of decimals there, but anywho... In 2008, RIM was outselling Apple 5:1 in Canada. Now they're at 0.73:1. That is not good.

So why would they stick a fork in it?

The same reason Nokia stuck a fork in Symbian - selling well in markets where there is no money to be made doesn't make for a healthy company.

-----

It has been reported the development teams have completed all of their projects and the OS has been assembled. They are just working out a few kinks.

I'm reminded of the Iraqi information minister every time I read something from RIM. It's not that their OS is seemingly perpetually delayed, it's that they're so awesome that it's taking longer to get all the awesomeness put together.

As I have stated, Blackberry will never go back to their glory days, but Blackberry 10 is looking very promising in the sense that it can attract new users.

Who are they going to attract? The enormous market of consumers who want to buy a Blackberry to run Android apps on?

The real test will be if they can retain current users.

Yep. At this point, even if they do manage to ship BB10, and even if it is awesome, one has to wonder if it'll be enough. RIM has a lot of work to do to rebuild its reputation. They used to be known as that company with the cool phones that did push email really well. Now they're known as that company that is constantly delaying products and that is perpetually trapped years in the past. They need to somehow convince businesses and consumers that after years of delays and screw-ups, they've finally gotten it right and are going to survive long term.

I'd like to see them pull it off, but as the delays and absurd excuses (remember the LTE chipset delay lie?) mount, and as other platforms eat more and more into RIM's traditionally strong markets, it becomes harder and harder to see a scenario in which RIM emerges as a healthy company.

[Peregrine]

Apologies, in advance.
I hate bumping a thread just to say LOL but:

Originally Posted by JasonF

I'm reminded of the Iraqi information minister every time I read something from RIM. It's not that their OS is seemingly perpetually delayed, it's that they're so awesome that it's taking longer to get all the awesomeness put together.

LOL!!!!
True. True.

[hoffdano]

I had a Blackberry Bold less than two years ago. I thought it was a terrific phone with email. The hardware was excellent. But you know what? When I switched to Android using ActiveSync my Exchange email was handled perfectly. I think it sync'd better than RIM. And I didn't have to carry the BES premium on my phone package. And my company could get rid of the BES charge for me.

My boss was one of the first to get a Storm. Complete garbage - software-wise.

I do not think RIM can save itself. Companies are dropping RIM users every day. Microsoft+Nokia will overtake RIM and be the #3 player behind Google and Apple.

I agree RIM has strengths in some markets outside the US. But that will continue only as long as RIM is inexpensive.