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I'm also am not talking about any" mcmansions" on Folly. The 10 least expensive and smallest single family homes on Folly on the market or that have sold recently are priced or sold for an average of $433 a foot. A grubby little place on Folly is still going to cost as much if not more than a small grubby place in the Old Village area. When I asked for recommendations of some favorite "traditional"neighborhoods, I was not suggesting that anyone eliminate a neighborhood in an "upper class" neighborhood. The majority of residents of The Groves are "real" people like most of us. For those not familiar with The Groves or Cooper Estates, the average price per square foot for homes in both communities that sold recently was about $180. Higher than many other communities, but apparently worth the premium to many because of their charm, location and excellent neighborhood schools.
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Ah, but there are no "grubby" little places in the Village, where there are still a few on Folly- away from the beach. Apartments.
Average South Carolinian makes $28,240.00 per year (BLS 2000- hasn't gone up since then.). Lets concentrate on those folks' buying power and not some stock broker who (pre-depression) was in fat city, and could afford to live on what is inherently unbuildable land.
Until the land ain't there anymore, anyway.
Last edited by Geechie North; 09-29-2008 at 09:25 PM..
There are probably as many "grubby" little places available in the Old Village area for the same price at any given time as you will find on Folly. Both interesting areas and within the price range of "regular people." If you look at the 1999 census statistics for the state of SC you will see that the medium household income was $37,082. I suspect that it has gone up since than. The medium of Mt. Pleasant was $61,054 and Summerville $43,645. I think that "family income" might be a better indicator than individual income in terms of household affordability.
"Income" as defined by economists is not an accurate descriptor of earnings for 80% of the population, just as having Bill Gates in a room with seven working stiffs and dividing by "8" would wildly overstate the group's wealth.
But that aside, how's any family pulling in the princely sum of $37k going to live in The Village, Snee Farm, or even Cooper Estates?
Unless you define those old townhouses as part of Cooper Estates. Then I think it's still a stretch, unless they are into "underground" income sources.
If income is not an accurate description of earnings, could you tell us what a better indicator would be ? Within the past 6 months there have been 8 single family homes in Snee Farm that are listed or have sold in the under $300,000 range. They ranged in size between 1420 and 2500 sqft. There were 16 townhomes or condos in Snee Farm that sold or are on the market in Snee Farm for under $190,000. As many buyers of homes have money set aside for a downpayment or have gotten equity out of a home that they may have sold, I suspect that even an "average" SC family may qualify for one of these 24 Snee Farm homes. Are "real people" only those families in SC earning under $37,000? You included Folly Beach as being a traditional neighborhood that you liked that was affordable to "real people." Could you identify some "old grubby" places on Folly beach that have been or can be purchased for under $300,000 and large enough for a family ? A single family home in Cooper Estates sold this year for $306,000 (1770sqft) and one is on the market for $329,000 (1825 sqft). Could you tell me about some single family homes on Folly that can be purchased in this price range? I am not arguing that homes in Snee Farm, Cooper Estates and the Old Village area are within the price range of many SC residents, only that you can be "real people" earning a reasonable and normal salary in the Charleston area and afford to purchase a home in a nice traditional neighborhood such as Snee Farm, Cooper Estates and even in the Old Village area if not the true historic district of The Old Village.
If income is not an accurate description of earnings, could you tell us what a better indicator would be ? Within the past 6 months there have been 8 single family homes in Snee Farm that are listed or have sold in the under $300,000 range. They ranged in size between 1420 and 2500 sqft. There were 16 townhomes or condos in Snee Farm that sold or are on the market in Snee Farm for under $190,000. As many buyers of homes have money set aside for a downpayment or have gotten equity out of a home that they may have sold, I suspect that even an "average" SC family may qualify for one of these 24 Snee Farm homes. Are "real people" only those families in SC earning under $37,000? You included Folly Beach as being a traditional neighborhood that you liked that was affordable to "real people." Could you identify some "old grubby" places on Folly beach that have been or can be purchased for under $300,000 and large enough for a family ? A single family home in Cooper Estates sold this year for $306,000 (1770sqft) and one is on the market for $329,000 (1825 sqft). Could you tell me about some single family homes on Folly that can be purchased in this price range? I am not arguing that homes in Snee Farm, Cooper Estates and the Old Village area are within the price range of many SC residents, only that you can be "real people" earning a reasonable and normal salary in the Charleston area and afford to purchase a home in a nice traditional neighborhood such as Snee Farm, Cooper Estates and even in the Old Village area if not the true historic district of The Old Village.
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Sure, real wages, wages adjusted for inflation, are the major (if not only) source for some 80% of Americans, and therefore the best data to look at for describing what the buying power odf the average is.
I refer you to Dr. Wallace Peterson, U of Nebraska for the study which produced this info.
The problem is you are only looking at homes on the market, and as inefficient as the real estate market is/has always been, it cannot be used to describe much of anything- especially at present.
Families nationwide have been priced out of our grossly inflated housing market- that is a B.F.O.
That it is doubly true for the typical South Carolina family, trying to pull the payment for a payment for a $300K house out of a $37k median income is also a pretty sure bet
I am a little confused as to what you mean by the comment " The problem is you are only looking at homes on the market, and as inefficient as the real estate market is/has always been, it cannot be used to describe much of anything-especially at present". Maybe a forum member with more of an understanding of economics than I could interprete this comment. You fail to take into consideration the fact that a large percentage of new home buyers in the Charleston area are from out of state and do have equity from their prior home to put down on a home, so they are not necessarily financing $300,000, particularly in today's lending market.Your typical SC family also is not living in the Charleston area, but in the many small towns throughout the state and will not be purchasing or considering the purchase of a home in the harleston area. Those that are purchasing in the Charleston area have a medium income of $61,000 in Mt. Pleasant and $43,000 in Summerville and I suspect that those income earners do not feel that they are in the upper class or even upper middle class and can still afford to purchase a home in Mt. Pleasant and Summerville.
Any economist will tell you that even in "normal" times, the real estate market is inefficient, and these are not normal times.
One thing I believe my posts demonstrate is that I understand the demographic changes in Chas/Lowcountry. Namely, that many people from the NE and Midwest have moved down for climate/adventure reasons, and that some of those folks are either "real" rich, or else "pretend" rich, and that these groups have created a bubble in the local economy.
This has been the case many times in the past, in different cultures; I notice it most glaringly in Rio and (to a lesser degree) Nassau, in addition to Charleston.
I also note the type of society that such a set-up (few rich, many poor, small middle) produces.
You are certainly correct in your assertion that many individuals from the NE and midwest have moved to the lowcountry for a number of reasons, often being the weather, low taxes , slower pace of life and the friendliness of the area. You are also correct in that some of our new residents are relatively rich in terms of financial assets compared to the income of your "average South Carolinian. However, I think that the vast majority of new residents, as can be seen by contributors to this forum, do not consider themselves wealthy and have not been contributors to the "bubble" in the local economy.Lets assume that the medium household income of Charleston County is $37,800. In 2000 there were approximately 143,000 housholds in Charleston County. That would mean that there were over 71,000 households in Charleston County with incomes over $37,810, certainly a substantial number that would have more than $37,810 from which to draw from for housing expenses. An argument can be made that the quoting of a median income of $37,810 understates just as much as overstates the wealth of the Charleston County resident. I thought that the topic of this thread was ones favorite traditional neighborhood in the Charleston area and not whether a certain income level would prohibit someone from living there. There are many families with relatively low yearly incomes who because of conservative spending habits and savings plans have been able to afford to live in their "favorite neighborhood."
If I may get your original post back on track for you... the original post asked for examples in different price ranges; I appreciated pix of the Old Village as I've heard much about it, but have not yet seen it. Now, Geechie (or others) if you have other examples of areas that are not often mentioned on these posts, feel free to show them. We all have a different price point so can know/decide for ourselves if it will work for us or be worth the extra $/foot. Thanks for this particular thread and pix!
My point is simple: the neighborhoods listed by USCJoe are not "typical" for the Charleston, SC area.
They may be "typical" Charleston settings for a Hollywood-type fantasy movie, but not for real life, and certainly not for the typical resident- based on the econ data.
beth1104,
I believe I gave what I (or anyone familiar with the entire area) would consider a more representitive list of neighborhoods (like 'em or not, they are stereotypes for the whole) for Charleston, SC.
USCJoe,
I couldn't find data breaking down income distribution in Chas by quadrile, but I did find this:
Employment & Wages by Occupation Occupation Title52006 Total Employment2006 % Total Employment% Change 2000-20062006 Avg Hourly Wage ($)2006 Median Hourly Wage ($)All Occupations277,960100%18.6%16.5213.34Architecture & Engineering 6,7402.4%60.5%28.2527.39Arts, Design, Entertainment, Sports & Media 2,5500.9%36.4%17.5014.64Building & Grounds Cleaning / Maintenance11,2304.0%14.1%9.138.29Business & Financial Operations9,3403.4%32.1%25.8823.39Community & Social Services2,9101.0%11.5%16.4715.17Computer & Mathematical 4,4201.6%39.9%27.6625.74Construction & Extraction17,4306.3%22.1%15.2214.25Education, Training & Library17,1206.2%15.1%19.0718.63Farming, Fishing & Forestry5900.2%126.9%11.9610.69Food Preparation & Serving Related 28,17010.1%24.2%8.337.44Healthcare Practitioners & Technical14,5205.2%13.1%26.2322.66Healthcare Support 6,4302.3%16.3%11.2410.21Installation, Maintenance & Repair12,8704.6%13.2%17.1116.36Legal2,0600.7%30.4% 36.2028.11Life, Physical & Social Science1,7700.6%-3.8%24.9723.64Management 12,7404.6%-20.3%37.6733.69Office & Administrative Support45,27016.3%26.9%13.5312.50Personal Care & Service6,5902.4%37.0%9.678.30Production17,5506.3%1 2.3%15.0513.88Protective Service 6,7202.4%17.3%14.1013.55Sales & Related29,36010.6%21.7%13.9310.05Transportation & Material Moving21,5807.8%17.0%13.6311.19
Notes & Sources: (1) U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, 2008. Forecast data from Center for Business Research, Charleston Metro Chamber of Commerce 3/08 (2) 2000 Census, US Census Bureau (latest available) (3) Pathfinders study; SC Dept of Education; SC Commission on Higher Education.
Please look at those wage numbers and tell me how the average cat affords The Village.
Yes, it's outside $.
Yes, that's how most 3rd world "nice climate; horrible conditions" joints work.
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