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Seriously, let it go. These frivolously arguments you start are not beneficial to discussion.
I am not arguing. I am stating there are plenty of data centers in Charlotte that were built without access to voluminous amounts of water. The big difference, they were built without government "stimulus" and thus government stipulations as to location. The "water" argument is given to justify it. Take away the stimulus money and the water becomes irrelevant. There isn't an engineering reason for it that can't be solved by other methods as the centers I listed above prove.
The biggest reason these centers are coming to NC now is because the government is giving them money to do so. If they were not passing it out, they would put them somewhere else. There hasn't been one data center announcement in the last few years that wasn't conditioned by government tax spending. If the water was the most important item then they would not need the NC state tax incentives. Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yantosh22
I am not arguing. I am stating there are plenty of data centers in Charlotte that were built without access to voluminous amounts of water. The big difference, they were built without government "stimulus" and thus government stipulations as to location. The "water" argument is given to justify it. Take away the stimulus money and the water becomes irrelevant. There isn't an engineering reason for it that can't be solved by other methods as the centers I listed above prove.
The biggest reason these centers are coming to NC now is because the government is giving them money to do so. If they were not passing it out, they would put them somewhere else. There hasn't been one data center announcement in the last few years that wasn't conditioned by government tax spending. If the water was the most important item then they would not need the NC state tax incentives. Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.
Good lord. Most of the stimulus money in Kings Mountain comes from here. Golden LEAF Foundation North Carolina That isn't tax money I don't know if Charlotte accesses that specific fund, or if there is a similar one that they access. The rest of the stimulus money that Kings Mountain accesses does have tax money in it & Bev rolled federal stimulus money into it. There is a big-city counterpart that Charlotte accesses.
Lately everyplace has had stimulus money to flash around, so, really, nobody's coming in without getting their piece of the pie.
ETA: Well, almost nobody. Walgreens will come without a penny of stimulus money
Last edited by southbound_295; 07-12-2011 at 03:59 PM..
Reason: forgot about Walgreens
...That isn't tax money I don't know if Charlotte accesses that specific fund,
This is from the link you posted.
HOUSE APPROPRIATIONS BILL TO CUT GOLDEN LEAF FUNDING FOR 2012, 2013 Proposed Legislation would divert almost $140 million away from rural,tobacco-dependent, and economically distressed North Carolina communities.
They are in a panic over this and pretty much claim their grants would disappear if this tax funding disappears. This foundation uses public money to provide grants to communities that are hurt by the loss of tobacco industry. It was supposed to be paid for initially by the tobacco industry as part of a settlement with the state of NC but as you can see, the state has other ideas for the money. Charlotte isn't an economically depressed due to the tobacco industry so it would never qualify. (though I guess one could make an argument for the recent closure of the Phillip Morris cigarette making plant)
In any case, the point was that huge amounts of water are not necessary to locate a data center. It's the stimulus money that locates them. If water was the real concern, they could be placed right on the Catawba river in Charlotte where one of the largest sources of fresh water in the state is located. It's why there are 2 nuclear plants, 3 coal fired plants, and dozens of other factories located right on the water.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Originally Posted by yantosh22
This is from the link you posted.
HOUSE APPROPRIATIONS BILL TO CUT GOLDEN LEAF FUNDING FOR 2012, 2013 Proposed Legislation would divert almost $140 million away from rural,tobacco-dependent, and economically distressed North Carolina communities.
They are in a panic over this and pretty much claim their grants would disappear if this tax funding disappears. This foundation uses public money to provide grants to communities that are hurt by the loss of tobacco industry. It was supposed to be paid for initially by the tobacco industry as part of a settlement with the state of NC but as you can see, the state has other ideas for the money. Charlotte isn't an economically depressed due to the tobacco industry so it would never qualify. (though I guess one could make an argument for the recent closure of the Phillip Morris cigarette making plant)
In any case, the point was that huge amounts of water are not necessary to locate a data center. It's the stimulus money that locates them. If water was the real concern, they could be placed right on the Catawba river in Charlotte where one of the largest sources of fresh water in the state is located. It's why there are 2 nuclear plants, 3 coal fired plants, and dozens of other factories located right on the water.
This is tobacco money. The Republican legislators wanted to use it to plug the budget. Bev vetoed it. Check the Shelby Star if you doubt me. That is what started the war of the budget. Cleveland & Lincoln Counties yelled about the legislature taking the year's allocation of money from Golden Leaf. When the budget was passed & education money was divvied up, both counties got extra big cuts.
Of course the stimulus & grant money helps bring them in, but the companies are spending millions above & beyond it. Besides, how many Walgreens does any town need?
We have to see details of the data center in Charlotte to know to what extent it is producing jobs. The 2 data centers in Kings Mountain are rateables. There is a 3rd company involved with the Kings Mountain complex. If they start working on a 3rd building, then that will be a done deal.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Originally Posted by yantosh22
Well... for one of them, none now. The company is out of business and they tore down the building.
The Time Warner data center.
I'll tell you what. You believe whatever your heart desires. You've been given links & told sources & you are still trying to nitpick that some companies want a large water supply for data centers. No one has said that there are not other cooling methods, but you want to nitpick this.
If I believed as you seem to, then I would be trying to argue that all call centers must use dummy terminals cabled to mainframes that are connected to the mainframe source by phonelines. The world has moved on.
Time will tell what cooling method the Charlotte data center uses & to what extent the jobs are located in the data center vs the office building that is going into the complex.
HOUSE APPROPRIATIONS BILL TO CUT GOLDEN LEAF FUNDING FOR 2012, 2013 Proposed Legislation would divert almost $140 million away from rural,tobacco-dependent, and economically distressed North Carolina communities.
They are in a panic over this and pretty much claim their grants would disappear if this tax funding disappears. This foundation uses public money to provide grants to communities that are hurt by the loss of tobacco industry. It was supposed to be paid for initially by the tobacco industry as part of a settlement with the state of NC but as you can see, the state has other ideas for the money. Charlotte isn't an economically depressed due to the tobacco industry so it would never qualify. (though I guess one could make an argument for the recent closure of the Phillip Morris cigarette making plant)
In any case, the point was that huge amounts of water are not necessary to locate a data center. It's the stimulus money that locates them. If water was the real concern, they could be placed right on the Catawba river in Charlotte where one of the largest sources of fresh water in the state is located. It's why there are 2 nuclear plants, 3 coal fired plants, and dozens of other factories located right on the water.
Can you site a source for this stimulus claim? I say this because from what I can see, there is a definite reason some why some of the other centers were built in their chosen locations, and it was not that they were dictated by the acceptance of stimulus dollars. The link below outlines why some companies are choosing North Carolina:
As the article states (below), the reasons we’re seeing a lot of data center activity here are:
1) Certain counties in North Carolina made a concerted effort to for this business at a time when companies like Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Apple, etc… were starting to consider building huge data centers. Apple looked into the county as a result of the county’s outreach efforts. This effort began pre-stimulus, in 2006.
2) Sitting by a body of water is not enough as in addition to a good supply of water, the existing water infrastructure needs to be in place as well.
3) The existing infrastructure from the furniture and textile industries and Duke Energy’s competitive pricing.
While incentives played a part with these companies deciding to locate their data centers in NC, inexpensive available land, water and electrical infrastructure and the effort to get this kind of business appears to have played a bigger role. And as southbound said, we acknowledge water is only one way to cool a data center, but it is becoming a more efficient way in these massive, cloud serving data centers and we don’t know if the TW center will be in the same class (cloud/media streaming) as the Apple or Google centers.
Why North Carolina?
Catawba County became interested in data centers in 2006 and began marketing its location by contacting tech companies and hosting the Data Center Information Exchange, said Scott Millar, president of the Catawba County Economic Development Corporation. Apple looked into the county as a result of the county’s outreach efforts.
North Carolina was already being considered because of the existing infrastructure from the furniture and textile industries and Duke Energy’s competitive pricing, Millar said.
Access to water is also a factor as some data centers use it to cool electronic equipment, said Steve Killian, director of planning and economic development for Kings Mountain, N.C. The water and sewer capacity set up for textile manufacturing in Cleveland County helped to draw Wipro to the area.
Tax incentives and grants are also offered to these companies, such as the grants Wipro will receive from the City of Kings Mountain, Killian said.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,678,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redd Jedd
Can you site a source for this stimulus claim? I say this because from what I can see, there is a definite reason some why some of the other centers were built in their chosen locations, and it was not that they were dictated by the acceptance of stimulus dollars. The link below outlines why some companies are choosing North Carolina:
As the article states (below), the reasons we’re seeing a lot of data center activity here are:
1) Certain counties in North Carolina made a concerted effort to for this business at a time when companies like Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Apple, etc… were starting to consider building huge data centers. Apple looked into the county as a result of the county’s outreach efforts. This effort began pre-stimulus, in 2006.
2) Sitting by a body of water is not enough as in addition to a good supply of water, the existing water infrastructure needs to be in place as well.
3) The existing infrastructure from the furniture and textile industries and Duke Energy’s competitive pricing.
While incentives played a part with these companies deciding to locate their data centers in NC, inexpensive available land, water and electrical infrastructure and the effort to get this kind of business appears to have played a bigger role. And as southbound said, we acknowledge water is only one way to cool a data center, but it is becoming a more efficient way in these massive, cloud serving data centers and we don’t know if the TW center will be in the same class (cloud/media streaming) as the Apple or Google centers.
Why North Carolina?
Catawba County became interested in data centers in 2006 and began marketing its location by contacting tech companies and hosting the Data Center Information Exchange, said Scott Millar, president of the Catawba County Economic Development Corporation. Apple looked into the county as a result of the county’s outreach efforts.
North Carolina was already being considered because of the existing infrastructure from the furniture and textile industries and Duke Energy’s competitive pricing, Millar said.
Access to water is also a factor as some data centers use it to cool electronic equipment, said Steve Killian, director of planning and economic development for Kings Mountain, N.C. The water and sewer capacity set up for textile manufacturing in Cleveland County helped to draw Wipro to the area.
Tax incentives and grants are also offered to these companies, such as the grants Wipro will receive from the City of Kings Mountain, Killian said.
Thank you for a coherent, well written post.
Kings Mountain was in the running for Apple & Microsoft. Maiden got Apple because Catawba County was behind the project. That woke up officials in Cleveland County. Microsoft went to Virginia because the Commonwealth of Virginia was offering incentives that North Carlonia could not match.
The Shelby Star has a lot of articles archived on the data center saga, as it pertains to the region. I've been out to see the current data centers. These are massive buildings. These would not readily fit in a city setting. I'll try to take a couple of pictures, if there's a way to get a concept of the scale.
T5 from Atlanta owns the Kings Mountain land & is marketing it. They also own a smaller plot of land in Maiden, which they are also marketing. The type of data center going into Kings Mountain & Maiden are not the type that would be going into Charlotte. As you said, they are the massive, cloud variety. They are not big job producers & need lots of cheap land, electricity & water. They are state of the art facilities. They should not be compared to older facilities.
I'll be interested in what Time Warner builds, but, really, I think that it will be a different type.
What? haha. It's common sense. I've given detail behind this rationale above. Since those details were too inconvenient to address, then I won't bother with it further as it can simply be distilled down to this question.
If the stimulus money was withdrawn, would they still open the plant? There are two possible answers:
NO - OK, this means all the other reasons given were irrelevant.
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I think that people in Charlotte should be happy with the Time Warner deal. Time will tell what the details are concerning it.
It's 2011 &, for quite some time, prior to the current recession/mass unemployment, incentives have been needed to get many businesses in. I have cited Kings Mountain & Maiden, because they are the closest, most recent, sites of new data centers. Toss in the Facebook data center in Forest City, if you wish.
Here is a link to a story that ran in the Shelby Star that detailed how Kings Mountain lost the Microsoft data center to VA. The Commonwealth of Virginia made an incentive offer because they wanted that particular data center. The State of North Carolina just plain couldn't meet or beat them, because the state is looking towards getting many data centers in. Microsoft passes on Cleveland County deal: Potential agreement a year in the works; officials eye other projects | groundbreakings, county, agreement - Top Story - The Star Online : The Newspaper of Cleveland County (http://www.shelbystar.com/news/groundbreakings-49666-county-agreement.html - broken link) These things are terrific rateables.
A true data center is not a good job producer, but their value makes them incredibly good rateables. Negotiating for them involves state, county, & local officials. The link that I gave is for the Shelby Star, which has been running stories on this topic for quite a while. Search it if you want more details. I'm not going to post dozens of links concerning Kings Mountain, Maiden, & Forest City. As always, I get a certain amount of information from the Kings Mountain Herald, which is not online. Come & visit the Kings Mountain Library is you want to check old copies for details. Welcome to MauneyLibrary.org
Be happy about the Time Warner data center.
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