Indigenous wines for sale in the Chicago area? (Melrose Park, Roselle: high school, live)

[emathias]

Anyone know of a local wine store that carries a selection of wines made from indigenous American grapes?

Varietals that are indigenous to America include grapes like the norton, muscadine, scuppernong, mustang, alexander, catawba, noble, cowart, carlos, black spanish and possibly dozens of others. I'm not aware of any national brands when it comes to indigenous grape wines, but there are a lot of local vineyards around the nation making them.

[Vlajos]

Sams uses to have some, binnys may

[emathias]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

Sams uses to have some, binnys may

I liked and miss Sam's. Binny's has never really lived up, and I'm particularly annoyed that they removed the cheese section in their River North store.

[chet everett]

Very rare to find wines that either specifically mention the variety of fruit used or the percentage of that vs others. The California growers at one time wanted stricter labeling standards but dropped that once they realized how inconstant varieties can be frommyear to year. Blending is their salvation in years when the weather is unfavorable.

If you hang out at Lynfred Winery in Roselle their winemaker is very knowlegable and can provide notes far more detailed than the lable/ marketing people. Locally that is probably your best bet for the info you are seeking.. There are also a lot of knowledge based winemakers in Michigan, both the "Harbour Country" area just over the bordrr as well as Traverse City. Of course the variabilitynof our weather is far more extreme than any of the growing areas in CA or NY, so they do rely even more heavily on blending, but the knowledge they have is quite impressive...

[emathias]

Originally Posted by chet everett

Very rare to find wines that either specifically mention the variety of fruit used or the percentage of that vs others....

The majority of American wines do list the component varietals in their wines. They may or may not list the percentages, but they list the grapes. Outside of France, even quite a lot of European producers list the grapes involved, as do most Australian and other New World producers.

But that's beside the point - I'm simply asking for local wine shops that carry wines made from vitis labrusca that are native to the Americas versus wines make from vitis vinifera which are native to Europe. Your answer seems to imply you don't even realize there are indigenous grapes to the Americas that are used for wine, which seems to be a big part of the reason there isn't much produced or sold. For example, Lynfred exclusively produces wine from vitis vinifera grapes.

[Tex?Il?]

Check out Meijer.

They have many wines from Illinois and southwest Michigan that include Catawba wine.

I don't think there are any Meijer in the city, but they opened up a Meijer marketplace in Melrose Park off North Ave., and they do have some wines like that.

[chet everett]

OK time to put on my "I'm smarter than you hat."

I happen to have earned a botany degree and along with sequence of studies I took several classes in viniculture back in the 80s.

The production of wine from "fox grapes" had roots in Canada / upstate NY and Michigan. The modern oenology of these regions had to overcome the "Mogan David & Muscatel" image of "stinky" or "sour" (vitis labrusca/ riverbank grapes) indigenous grapes.

I did not say that Lynnfred or any other high quality winery is producing such wines, but that the winemakers with local connections might be able to steer one toward this esoteric pursuit...

[emathias]

Originally Posted by chet everett

...
The production of wine from "fox grapes" had roots in Canada / upstate NY and Michigan. The modern oenology of these regions had to overcome the "Mogan David & Muscatel" image of "stinky" or "sour" (vitis labrusca/ riverbank grapes) indigenous grapes.
...

Ok, Mr. Botany. I've never studied botany beyond whatever is taught in high school science, but I've done considerable reading about viticulture and I grew up in the Willamette Valley wine region of Oregon.

Prior to Prohibition, Missouri alternated between being the nation's largest or second-largest wine producer, primarily using native-to-Missouri, other North American varieties or a few hybrids. The reason for this is that European varietals had a very hard time surviving some of the native diseases here. Even today, to grow European wines east fo the Rockies, you pretty much have to use a native rootstock and graft on the non-native vines. Part of the reason you have European wines in the West is that the Rockies made an effective barrier between the growing areas, and the West didn't have the same diseases and pests as the East.

The indigenous grapes produce different wines because they are lower in sugar and higher in acid than most European grapes. They also produce more methyl anthranilate, which is the chemical responsible for what was commonly called a "foxy" smell or taste and, incidentally, is the chemical now used to create artificial grape flavoring. So, in other words, the "stinky" aspect of indigenous wines was basically them tasting more like what modern Americans would simply describe as "grape flavor." Given that Europeans in general, and the French particularly, like drier, more complex wines, ones that have a distinctly "grapey" flavor are going to be at a disadvantage as judged by sophisticated palettes in a taste test.

Blending wines certainly does produce the most consistent quality wines, but I know I'm not the only one who likes to also see what specific grapes varieties can produce on their own. And styles of wine come in and out of favor, so while the types of wines produced from American grapes may currently only warrant niche status - who knows what might happen in 30 or 40 years.

[Isotope-C14]

Originally Posted by emathias

Anyone know of a local wine store that carries a selection of wines made from indigenous American grapes?

Varietals that are indigenous to America include grapes like the norton, muscadine, scuppernong, mustang, alexander, catawba, noble, cowart, carlos, black spanish and possibly dozens of others. I'm not aware of any national brands when it comes to indigenous grape wines, but there are a lot of local vineyards around the nation making them.

I would check/call the Galena Wine Seller in Geneva, IL. (NOT lake geneva).

Galena Cellars Vineyard & Winery - Award Winning Wines made in Illinois

They are actually located very close to the Metra station in Geneva, and have a tasting room...

Santa Maria Vineyard & Winery - Wine List

^^^ Not necessarily local, but you can get their wines by direct shipping unless you want to drive to Iowa City. And they do have a catwaba and some odd blends that include concord.

If you were interested in getting the grapes and making it yourself, it's really not that difficult. Though I think most will have been harvested from IL/IA/MO by this time of year.

Bevens Creek Vineyard and Nursery

^^^ possible hope for a non-foxy cold resistant wine grape?!?!?

Good luck on your search!

[Isotope-C14]

Originally Posted by emathias

The indigenous grapes produce different wines because they are lower in sugar and higher in acid than most European grapes. They also produce more methyl anthranilate, which is the chemical responsible for what was commonly called a "foxy" smell or taste and, incidentally, is the chemical now used to create artificial grape flavoring. So, in other words, the "stinky" aspect of indigenous wines was basically them tasting more like what modern Americans would simply describe as "grape flavor." Given that Europeans in general, and the French particularly, like drier, more complex wines, ones that have a distinctly "grapey" flavor are going to be at a disadvantage as judged by sophisticated palettes in a taste test.

I would agree with the former part of the first sentence, the latter would be suspicious to me. I ran a winery lab for some time and the common/routine test for determining acid in wine is laughable. They call it "titratable acidity" and is basically adding a strong base to your acidic wine solution to an endpoint. That said, we had a more sophisticated method for looking at acids in wine and we were able to separate them from each-other. The European varietals I'm quite certain will have more malic and lactic acid than their American counterparts which would be primarily tartaric acid. I'd guess American varietals have twice the concentration of tartaric acid than their European counterpart. Hypothetical example:

Washington Cab Sauv: 2.3g/L Tartaric - 3.2g/L Malic - 3.0g/L Lactic
Illinois Chambourcin: 4.0g/L Tartaric - 2.0g/L Malic - 0.5 g/L Lactic

Now the laughable part is that the total acids of the hypothetical Cab Sauv are higher than that of our Illinois grape, but the routine common test would tell you the exact opposite, due to more strong base being needed to react with the greater concentration of Tartaric acid.

Originally Posted by emathias

Blending wines certainly does produce the most consistent quality wines, but I know I'm not the only one who likes to also see what specific grapes varieties can produce on their own. And styles of wine come in and out of favor, so while the types of wines produced from American grapes may currently only warrant niche status - who knows what might happen in 30 or 40 years.

I'm not certain that blending creates consistent quality. I am certain that super clean conditions at a winery and by-the-book production protocols including 0.22µM filtration does though.