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Old 08-01-2010, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,450,774 times
Reputation: 428

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In the doctrine of Universalism, the Gospel becomes a washed up, old fashioned, outdated message which has no bearing on the rest of humanity. It was necessary for the first century, of course, but not for today. The all inclusive work of Jesus Christ saves all of humanity forever. Who needs Jesus or the Gospel? All mankind reaps eternal life automatically. Why bother preaching the Gospel when all men become God’s children regardless of what they believe? Why? Why? Why?

Jesus Christ is in the exact center and catalyst for all God does, yesterday, today, and forever. Universalism removes Jesus Christ from the center and relegates Him to the sidelines. What Jesus did in the past was absolutely necessary, says the Universalist, but that is all finished now. We don’t need Jesus anymore. Salvation is now automatic for everyone. Men don’t have to believe in Jesus. They don’t have to love Him. They don’t even have to like Him. Everyone receives salvation, even Judas Iscariot and the Devil himself, according to Universalism. - Arthur Melanson - Click here

The penalty of sin was paid by Jesus Christ for the sinner who believes in Him. Without that belief, those sins are left unpaid for. The duration of Hell, is the same as Heaven.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Let's examine one good example of Universalist scriptural gymnastics and theior rebuttal of the above two verses:

Olam used in one passage for 2 different durations: Hab 3:6

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood and surveyed the earth; He looked and startled the nations. Yes, the perpetual ad mountains were shattered, The ancient olam hills collapsed. His ways are everlasting olam.

Universalists quote Hab 3:6 as an example of the word olam being used in the same passage for two different times. But as we will see here very closely, this is not true. The word olam is used in Hab 3:6 for the identical period of time.

Universalists argue that olam is first applied to "non eternal created things like a mountain" and "eternal God". For them, this is a clear way of answering the challenge to find a single verse that uses olam for two different periods of time.

They reason that Hab 3:6 sets a precedent for explaining why Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:46 cannot be used against them as proof that the duration of heaven and hell are identical.

Hab 3:6 uses olam for the identical period of time:

Two different Hebrew words were applied to the mountains that will be destroyed: ad and olam. Then olam is applied to God. It was not nearly as simplistic as the tension in Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:46.

Habakkuk 3:6 He stood and surveyed the earth; He looked and startled the nations. Yes, the perpetual ad mountains were shattered, The ancient olam hills collapsed. His ways are everlasting olam.

The larger context has God’s mountain (verse 3 Paran) lasting forever, but Edom’s and Midian’s mountains being destroyed.

The first major problem is explaining how two physical mountains will be destroyed, but one physical mountain will endure forever. The mountains are in fact metaphoric for kingdoms. The Edomites viewed their kingdoms as strong, everlasting, eternal "olam" but God takes the words out of their mouth and in a kind of mockery, contradicts this: "You Edomites say your mountain (kingdom) will last forever and be eternal, but I, God, tell you that your "eternal mountain will collapse and be shattered". The Edomites thought that their mountains would exist as long as God exists, but God corrects this misunderstanding.

Therefore the way the word "olam" is used in Hab 3:6 is not an example of two different time lengths because the Edomites viewed their mountain lasting the same length of time as God himself. For all these reasons, Hab 3:6 is not an example of a single passage using the word "olam" for two different time lengths.

In the Universalist debate, there are no other passages that use "olam" for two different duration of time. Heb 3:6 cannot be used as an example of this. The same goes for many more, including the most infamous of Jonah and the belly of the whale.

Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jonah was recorded as perceiving he would be in the belly of the earth forever, but as we are always shown, through quick repentance, that decree can be reveresed. So much for Universalism there huh?
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:26 AM
 
Location: New England
37,342 posts, read 28,401,363 times
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I believe in UR and Jesus Christ is most definetly the center of my faith . He is the way to the Father(not heaven , he never claimed that) and the scriptures testify of Him .

I also know many who believe in ET whom Jesus Christ is the center of their faith , but i have been shocked by what many believe on here .
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:29 AM
2K5Gx2km
 
n/a posts
@ sciotamicks - I agree but even better is the fact that any Scholar will tell you that olam is governed by its context and has a variety of nuances. In other words even if you could find other nuances in different contexts it would do nothing to negate Dan.12:2. Either eternal life is not eternal or olam in relation to damnation is - Matt. and Dan. show equivalency in duration. Pretty simple huh.
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Pilot Point, TX
7,874 posts, read 14,216,898 times
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I strongly disagree with the OP.
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Old 08-01-2010, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 6,385,667 times
Reputation: 875
??
Finn,
you must be really bored..
Is accusing all that you can do? I think you have been shown time and again that Jesus Christ is the Hope of ALL mankind!! How do you say that UR does not recogize Him, when He is what the Gospel message is all about???

Blessings,
brian
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,419,271 times
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God is FROM olam TO olam

Kind of stupid things to say if olam means eternity.

God is FROM eternity TO eternity

Talk about confusion.

God is not the author of confusion, but man shore made Him look that way with their translations.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,450,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I strongly disagree with the OP.
Unfortunately for you little elmer, the scripture strongly disagrees with you, again.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:18 AM
2K5Gx2km
 
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
God is FROM olam TO olam

Kind of stupid things to say if olam means eternity.

God is FROM eternity TO eternity

Talk about confusion.

God is not the author of confusion, but man shore made Him look that way with their translations.
Words can have a variety of meanings depending on the context - it is not a difficult linguistic concept.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,450,774 times
Reputation: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
God is FROM olam TO olam

Kind of stupid things to say if olam means eternity.

God is FROM eternity TO eternity

Talk about confusion.

God is not the author of confusion, but man shore made Him look that way with their translations.
God is from eternity to eternity.....makes sense to me, and the entire Christian congregation as well. It is only that UR attempts to change its meaning, defying its context.
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Old 08-01-2010, 10:24 AM
 
64,026 posts, read 40,336,559 times
Reputation: 7898
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
In the doctrine of Universalism, the Gospel becomes a washed up, old fashioned, outdated message which has no bearing on the rest of humanity. It was necessary for the first century, of course, but not for today. The all inclusive work of Jesus Christ saves all of humanity forever. Who needs Jesus or the Gospel? All mankind reaps eternal life automatically. Why bother preaching the Gospel when all men become God’s children regardless of what they believe? Why? Why? Why?
Your insistence on lying and misrepresenting UR is so consistent all doubt about it being deliberate is removed. We reject your OT interpretations under the veil of ancient ignorance of our ancestors (un-removed by Christ and His unambiguous example). You worship the ancient Jehovah . . . NOT Jesus Christ . . . so you more closely resemble the JW's. Jesus is truly central to UR . . . Jesus' message and example was CLEAR . . . you reject it in favor of ancient ignorance, period.
Quote:

Jesus Christ is in the exact center and catalyst for all God does, yesterday, today, and forever. Universalism removes Jesus Christ from the center and relegates Him to the sidelines. What Jesus did in the past was absolutely necessary, says the Universalist, but that is all finished now. We don’t need Jesus anymore.
More lies upon lies fabricated from your worship of ancient ignorance and NOT Jesus Christ!
Quote:
Salvation is now automatic for everyone
Quote:
. Men don’t have to believe in Jesus. They don’t have to love Him. They don’t even have to like Him. Everyone receives salvation, even Judas Iscariot and the Devil himself, according to Universalism. - Arthur Melanson - Click here
Anyone reading our posts about Jesus' love and our "love of God and each other." recognizes the blatant lies detailed here and in your apparent lying mentors' citation. You have created an "evil straw man UR" so you can continue under the veil of ancient ignorance and reject the truth about Jesus and His example as the ONLY acceptable source of truth about God's TRUE NATURE.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 08-01-2010 at 10:48 AM..
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