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God's strength is not eternal? - Is.26:4 - the Lord is tempory strength? and
God is not eternal - Is.40:28. "The olam God... the Creator of the ends of the earth' [1] - what does that mean the limted period God - the God of a only a certain period (which contradicts your previous point that he spans all periods)?
What you fail to realize is that olam may mean a limited period of time and it may not depending on the context - there is not one meaning - you cannot overlay one meaning in one verse upon another verse.
Olam is used to infer and imply eternality is certain contexts.
[1] Note from NET Bible: Heb “the ends of the earth,” but this is a merism, where the earth’s extremities stand for its entirety, i.e., the extremities and everything in between them.
See Ps.90:2 again.
I suggest you take some linguistic classes - it will help.
The scripture do not say there is eternal life they say there is aionios or age during life, I agree with the scriptures.
And I say that is just playing with words.
Every place olam is recorded is refering to an age, yes God is the God of an age because He is the God of ALL ages.
If you and others want to play with words in order to make them suit your doctrine that is fine with me, but don't expect me to play around with the meaning of word just because you beleive we can.
Got to run.
08-01-2010, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
The scripture do not say there is eternal life they say there is aionios or age during life, I agree with the scriptures.
And I say that is just playing with words.
Every place olam is recorded is refering to an age, yes God is the God of an age because He is the God of ALL ages.
If you and others want to play with words in order to make them suit your doctrine that is fine with me, but don't expect me to play around with the meaning of word just because you beleive we can.
Your insistence on lying and misrepresenting UR is so consistent all doubt about it being deliberate is removed
+1
Scio, you lie and lie and lie. Find some examples PLEASE where someone in the UR camp says we don't need Christ for salvation. Don't quote scripture, cut n' paste something someone said in the past.
I can understand you not believing in Christ saving all of mankind but for you to continually lie....I DONT GET IT.
Y
Friend, DECEPTION IS A REVERSAL OF THE REALITY!! The person caught up in a deception is UTTERLY UNAWARE OF IT. He/she usually will not EVEN CONSIDER AN OPPOSING POINT OF VIEW, which is one of the CLUES they are in deception. Deception is SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS, and the Bible claims that SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS COMES FROM DISOBEDIENCE TO THE WORD OF GOD, or A REFUSAL OF THE WORD OF GOD!! Again, you cannot bypass the SON and go straight to the throne!! Still an "all loving God" to you? Yes, He is, but He is also HOLY!! H-O-L-Y!!
There is an order of things in the spiritual my friend, go and learn what this mean. Guidance to you.......may God open up your spiritual eyes.
Betsey
You describe yourself, Betsey. You accept the descriptions of God produced by the ancients under the veil of ignorance and REJECT the Gospel (Good News) . . . which Jesus Christ came to deliver that removed the veil of ignorance and revealed the TRUE NATURE of God by His example and two commandments . . . "Love God and each other." Nothing in the OT is part of the Gospel . . . it is only the validation of Jesus' Divinity as the Son of God. The Gospel is after OT and after the crucifixion, period. IF it was before . . . it could not be NEW (or Good News). Your delusion is that the ancient OT DESCRIPTIONS of God under the veil of ignorance were what God was actually like . . . they are NOT!. God is, was, and forever will be the same . . . but our stupid and ignorant understanding and DESCRIPTIONS of Him from the OT . . . are just that STUPID AND IGNORANT. It is our UNDERSTANDING that was supposed to change with Jesus and the Gospel . . . NOT God.JESUS revealed God to us clearly and unambiguously!!!
Betsey they have been corrected by us on what we believe and not what you believe.
I'm not talking about who is right or wrong , what sciota and others are doing is bearing false witness about what we believe , i am not sure if you have or haven't.
It's funny you should bring up not considering opposing points of view , have you not been reading the testimony's of those believe in UR , most of us not only considered ET , but fell for it and believed it hook ,line and sinker for years. So really you need to be preaching that one to yourself.
See you're doing it again...unbeknownst to even yourself, twisting truth! I said THE HOLY SPIRIT!! Not truth according to Betsey, Sciota, or whomever else, truth according to the Holy Spirit!! The H-O-L-Y S-P-I-R-I-T.
You keep accusing one of "bearing false witness" when in fact no one has misrepresented, nor manipulated scripture. We merely present it for what it says! God is the ONE who picked you're delusions!! Not Betsey, not Sciota, not Mike555. GOD!! Why? Because their hearts are not right! They strayed from the truth! Yes, by your own admission......
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (2 Peter 2: 21-22)
You know, I could sit here and give you a hundred verses proving that Hell is real and not "all" would be saved, but to what avail? For they would be utterly rejected! Why? Sadly, because for whatever reason buried in their secret heart, THEY CANNOT ACCEPT TRUTH! They do not want truth! They LOVE THEIR DELUSIONS. And, please don't get it twisted, this isn't me, Betsey, this is straight from the Words of God, hence; the I'm right, you're wrong card you just played. No, GOD SAID IT!! And HE is the Final Authority, but you already knew that didn't you?
Let's from now on correct each other based on God's principles, agreed?
The OP is misrepresenting the beliefs in UR in his/her posts. The corrections of these misrepresentations will be in BLUE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
In the doctrine of Universalism, the Gospel becomes a washed up, old fashioned, outdated message which has no bearing on the rest of humanity. This is, of course, the OP's opinion, not UR's. We would never think of saying such things. It was necessary for the first century, of course, but not for today. A Misrepresentation: Nope, still needed today. Where have we ever said this? Now I can see why one would come up with such an "opinion", for I used to think the same way when battling UR. It would be appreciated to state that this is an opinion, rather then misrepresenting UR by claiming we would state such a thing. The all inclusive work of Jesus Christ saves all of humanity forever. Of course the poster jumps to the conclusion of the matter without thinking of any kind of "process". Who needs Jesus or the Gospel? We say "Everybody" needs Jesus, but not "Everybody" will be given the "ears to hear" the Gospel yet. All mankind reaps eternal life automatically. IMO, the poster is confusing "aionian life" with "immortality". These are not one and the same thing. So, no, not everybody will be given "aionian life", but all WILL be saved sooner or later. Why bother preaching the Gospel when all men become God’s children regardless of what they believe? Why? Why? Why? This is spoken from a truly "carnal" mindset. And as said before, I can see why one (of this mindset) would ask such a question. I feel a yearning, from the Spirit, to say nothing more than "be ye reconciled" (2Co 5:18-21). For there is a big difference in "being reconciled" and NOT knowing and "being reconciled" and KNOWING it.
Jesus Christ is in the exact center and catalyst for all God does, yesterday, today, and forever. We believe this too, so the rest of this paragraph is nothing more than more 'misrepresentations' of UR. Remember, this is your 'opinion' in the matter. We do not believe these things as you are claiming. Universalism removes Jesus Christ from the center and relegates Him to the sidelines. What Jesus did in the past was absolutely necessary, says the Universalist, but that is all finished now. We don’t need Jesus anymore. Salvation is now automatic for everyone. Men don’t have to believe in Jesus. They don’t have to love Him. They don’t even have to like Him. Everyone receives salvation, even Judas Iscariot and the Devil himself, according to Universalism. - Arthur Melanson - Click here
The penalty of sin was paid by Jesus Christ for the sinner who believes in Him. Without that belief, those sins are left unpaid for. Again, there is a difference between KNOWING you are "reconciled" and NOT knowing you are reconciled. Nobody is saying this 'reconciliation' has no 'process'. Im sorry, but the sins of a man are NOT paid for by HIS 'belief'. Not only this, IMO if one believes in 'freewill' then ultimately his salvation is a result of his 'choice' and not Christ's work. To believe in Freewill then one cannot call the 2 statements below a lie.
Man's choosing Christ saves him = Man's doing
In Man's NOT choosing Christ, he is not saved = Man's doing
It is ALL UP TO MAN in the above statements. IMO, this is the "Gospel Nutshell" of mainstream christianity, save some sects of Calvs.
The below link has been presented many times in 'freewill' debate on this forum, but still has no answers to this day.
The below is just another 'misrepresentaion' in UR beliefs. I have yet to see one learned UR believer that states that "olam/aion LIFE" is ETERNAL, but "olam/aion PUNISHMENT/CONTEMPT" is TEMPORAL. We believe the Life AND the Punishment/Contempt are a "indeterminate period of time". Once again, the Poster is confusing "aionian Life" with "Immortality". It is the Poster that thinks "aionian Life" is ETERNAL, not UR, and is projecting this misunderstanding into UR belief. The duration of Hell, is the same as Heaven.
Daniel 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
Matt 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Let's examine one good example of Universalist scriptural gymnastics and theior rebuttal of the above two verses:
Olam used in one passage for 2 different durations: Hab 3:6
Habakkuk 3:6 He stood and surveyed the earth; He looked and startled the nations. Yes, the perpetual ad mountains were shattered, The ancient olam hills collapsed. His ways are everlasting olam.
Universalists quote Hab 3:6 as an example of the word olam being used in the same passage for two different times. But as we will see here very closely, this is not true. The word olam is used in Hab 3:6 for the identical period of time.
Universalists argue that olam is first applied to "non eternal created things like a mountain" and "eternal God".For them, this is a clear way of answering the challenge to find a single verse that uses olam for two different periods of time.
They reason that Hab 3:6 sets a precedent for explaining why Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:46 cannot be used against them as proof that the duration of heaven and hell are identical. All Misrepresentaion: No, you are saying we claim any phrase saying "God Olam" to be "ETERNAL God". You translate it this way, WE DONT, we tranlate it in its literal sense as "God of the age(s)". We state verses that prove that 'olam and aion/aionian' do not mean ETERNITY, by showing it of applying to "non eternal created things". But it is you who state that, when applied to God, WE UR BELIEVERS say it means "eternal". This is NOT true, we STILL maintain that it is "age abiding" or "age" or "ages", for we are saying it is applied to what HE is a 'God OF/UNTO/FOR' and NOT to what 'God IS'. Corrections to your understanding of our belief are below in your text.
Hab 3:6 uses olam for the identical period of time:
Two different Hebrew words were applied to the mountains that will be destroyed: ad and olam. Then olam is applied to God (No, but to what God is OF). It was not nearly as simplistic as the tension in Dan 12:2 and Matt 25:46.
Habakkuk 3:6He stood and surveyed the earth; He looked and startled the nations. Yes, the perpetual ad (continuing) mountains were shattered (not continuing any more, NOT ETERNAL), The ancient olam hills collapsed. (The hills of the AGE, [or ages] collapsed. NOT ETERNAL) His ways are everlasting olam. (His goings are FOR the AGE [LXX, aionian, OF or pertaining to the 'age' THAT IS BEING TALKED ABOUT]) This is NOT describing GOD but His "goings" that "ABIDE THROUGHOUT THE AGE IN QUESTION. And this 'age' is NOT ETERNAL.
The larger context has God’s mountain (verse 3 Paran) lasting forever, but Edom’s and Midian’s mountains being destroyed. (the word 'olam' is not in that verse. But if I were to follow your rendering this in the 'larger context' between the Mountain of Paran and the Mountain of Edom/Midian, I would still render it as WHICH would ABIDE through the AGE(s), not anything having to do with ETERNITY. One would Last for the AGE and one would NOT last through the AGE, but and AGE is still an AGE.
The first major problem is explaining how two physical mountains will be destroyed, but one physical mountain will endure forever. Misrepresentaion: See it is you who are trying to make one destroyed and one 'enduring for ETERNITY', not US. The mountains are in fact metaphoric for kingdoms. (good point) The Edomites viewed their kingdoms as strong, everlasting, eternal "olam" but God takes the words out of their mouth and in a kind of mockery, contradicts this: "You Edomites say your mountain (kingdom) will last forever and be eternal, but I, God, tell you that your "eternal mountain will collapse and be shattered". The Edomites thought that their mountains would exist as long as God exists (This is 'Man' reading his belief into the text. The scripture is not saying this. You see, you are still applying 'olam' to God and not to His 'goings OF the AGE' as the scripture is stating, thereby darkening your understanding of the scripture in question.), but God corrects this misunderstanding.
Therefore the way the word "olam" is used in Hab 3:6 is not an example of two different time lengths because the Edomites viewed their mountain lasting the same length of time as God himself. For all these reasons, Hab 3:6 is not an example of a single passage using the word "olam" for two different time lengths.
In the Universalist debate, there are no other passages that use "olam" for two different duration of time. Heb 3:6 cannot be used as an example of this. The same goes for many more, including the most infamous of Jonah and the belly of the whale.
Jonah 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever (for the rest of 'my olam', my LIFE, my EON, the EON he knows. He obviously knew he was going to die someday): yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
Jonah was recorded as perceiving he would be in the belly of the earth forever (No, but for the rest of his LIFE, which is said to be an 'olam') but as we are always shown, through quick repentance, that decree can be reveresed. So much for Universalism there huh?
I dont mind debating. But I find myself spending more time explaining the "Misrepresentations of our beliefs, rather then the beliefs themselves. In the future, just remember that in UR (most believers IMO) the words Olam and Aion/Aionios ALWAYS has something to do with an "age, era, eon, etc..". By that, dont go spreading a misrepresentation that we think God is NOT Eternal because of the the phrase "aionios God", which is NOT describing an attribute of His (which is what you are thinking), but rather showing that He is the "God of/unto/for the age(s)". Aionios God is literally rendered "God of the age(s)". It is NOT rendered "God is Eternal".
Therefore, our debate would be as thus: Is this word "describing His attribute" (your understanding) or "describing what He is God OF/UNTO/FOR" (UR's understanding). I hope you are understanding where I am coming from. If I have misrepresented you, please let me know.
You said: "because they have been corrected by us on this issue time and time again".
And that's the problem right there...... it is not the us (man) that does the correcting, it's the HOLY SPIRIT!! You know, someone asked on another thread: "Why would God then send them a delusion'....for the very same reason seen here time and time again, for they knew not the opposite was the truth!! That their claim to salvation was IN REALITY A CLAIM TO ETERNAL RUIN!! Why would an all loving God send anyone to Hell? He doesn't! Their delusion.... there isn't one according to UR! All will be saved.
But wait!! Why would all loving God send anybody a delusion? Why would God, the holder of ALL TRUTH, who wants us to KNOW ALL TRUTH, turn right around and say he will pick our delusion?
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. (Isaiah 66:4)
Friend, DECEPTION IS A REVERSAL OF THE REALITY!! The person caught up in a deception is UTTERLY UNAWARE OF IT. He/she usually will not EVEN CONSIDER AN OPPOSING POINT OF VIEW, which is one of the CLUES they are in deception. Deception is SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS, and the Bible claims that SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS COMES FROM DISOBEDIENCE TO THE WORD OF GOD, or A REFUSAL OF THE WORD OF GOD!! Again, you cannot bypass the SON and go straight to the throne!! Still an "all loving God" to you? Yes, He is, but He is also HOLY!! H-O-L-Y!!
There is an order of things in the spiritual my friend, go and learn what this mean. Guidance to you.......may God open up your spiritual eyes.
Betsey
You describe yourself, Betsey. You accept the descriptions of God produced by the ancients under the veil of ignorance and REJECT the Gospel (Good News) . . . which Jesus Christ came to deliver that removed the veil of ignorance and revealed the TRUE NATURE of God by His example and two commandments . . . "Love God and each other." Nothing in the OT is part of the Gospel . . . it is only the validation of Jesus' Divinity as the Son of God. The Gospel is after OT and after the crucifixion, period. IF it was before . . . it could not be NEW (or Good News). Your delusion is that the ancient OT DESCRIPTIONS of God under the veil of ignorance were what God was actually like . . . they are NOT!. God is, was, and forever will be the same . . . but our stupid and ignorant understanding and DESCRIPTIONS of Him from the OT . . . are just that STUPID AND IGNORANT. It is our UNDERSTANDING that was supposed to change with Jesus and the Gospel . . . NOT God.JESUS revealed God to us clearly and unambiguously!!!
Is that your argument........ our stupid and ignorant understanding and DESCRIPTIONS of Him from the OT......
He's changed somehow since then? Is he not the same, yesterday, today and forever? Am I missing something?
See you're doing it again...unbeknownst to even yourself, twisting truth! I said THE HOLY SPIRIT!! Not truth according to Betsey, Sciota, or whomever else, truth according to the Holy Spirit!! The H-O-L-Y S-P-I-R-I-T.
You keep accusing one of "bearing false witness" when in fact no one has misrepresented, nor manipulated scripture. We merely present it for what it says! God is the ONE who picked you're delusions!! Not Betsey, not Sciota, not Mike555. GOD!! Why? Because their hearts are not right! They strayed from the truth! Yes, by your own admission......
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (2 Peter 2: 21-22)
You know, I could sit here and give you a hundred verses proving that Hell is real and not "all" would be saved, but to what avail? For they would be utterly rejected! Why? Sadly, because for whatever reason buried in their secret heart, THEY CANNOT ACCEPT TRUTH! They do not want truth! They LOVE THEIR DELUSIONS. And, please don't get it twisted, this isn't me, Betsey, this is straight from the Words of God, hence; the I'm right, you're wrong card you just played. No, GOD SAID IT!! And HE is the Final Authority, but you already knew that didn't you?
Let's from now on correct each other based on God's principles, agreed?
AMEN, Betsey Lane...... Hallelujah !
I love your preachin', it is definitely the Lord's Spirit using your mouth to speak His TRUTH !!
Praise the Lord, our God is FAITHFUL !!
All your post in this thread are beautifully presented....
See you're doing it again...unbeknownst to even yourself, twisting truth! I said THE HOLY SPIRIT!! Not truth according to Betsey, Sciota, or whomever else, truth according to the Holy Spirit!! The H-O-L-Y S-P-I-R-I-T.
You keep accusing one of "bearing false witness" when in fact no one has misrepresented, nor manipulated scripture. We merely present it for what it says! God is the ONE who picked you're delusions!! Not Betsey, not Sciota, not Mike555. GOD!! Why? Because their hearts are not right! They strayed from the truth! Yes, by your own admission......
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (2 Peter 2: 21-22)
You know, I could sit here and give you a hundred verses proving that Hell is real and not "all" would be saved, but to what avail? For they would be utterly rejected! Why? Sadly, because for whatever reason buried in their secret heart, THEY CANNOT ACCEPT TRUTH! They do not want truth! They LOVE THEIR DELUSIONS. And, please don't get it twisted, this isn't me, Betsey, this is straight from the Words of God, hence; the I'm right, you're wrong card you just played. No, GOD SAID IT!! And HE is the Final Authority, but you already knew that didn't you?
Let's from now on correct each other based on God's principles, agreed?
Betsey i think you are getting your knickers in a twist over nothing .
If i said Betsey believed this that or another an in fact you didn't i would be bearing false witness about you Correct ?
This is what sciota and his disciples are doing about those who believe in UR .It's not that hard to understand Betsey , please understand i am not debating if ET or UR is correct , just to reiterate i and those of the UR persuasion do not believe what sciota and those who follow his teachings say we do.
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GIRRL!!!!!...AWESOME 
POST!!!!!
