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11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
This is an interesting revival of an old thread and I'm going to provide some comments that people who believe as I do, that Jesus is indeed God, will not agree with.
It has never been clear in the earliest writings and oral traditions about Jesus that He saw HIMSELF as God. Certainly the gospel of John indicates so, but it was written decades after the "fleshing" out, as it were, of the Christian message.
Jesus did have a messianic view of Himself, but a messianic view was not and is not the same as equating Jesus with God. There were many "messiahs" in Jesus' time frame and some claimed the Kingdom of God was at hand. All of those messiahs arose because there was a revolutionary zeal in the poor and disenfranchised who saw the Roman occupation and their suppression at the hands of the "rich" (Sanhedrin) chosen by Rome to lord it over them, as oppressive and anti-God.
Remember after Peter's confession near Caesarea Phillipi, Jesus first silences him, then goes on to describe how the "Son of Man" must suffer and be rejected before being killed and rising again three days later (Mark 8:31). After the transfiguration Jesus swears the disciples unto secrecy until after the Son of Man is raised from the dead (Mark 9:9). In both instances His conception of Himself is as the Son of Man and that takes precedence over how others viewed Him as the messiah. He is willing to accept the definition of messiah only if it fits into the book of Daniel. Jesus' own sense of self lies in deciphering His unique definition of Daniel's "one like a son of man" view.
And this is important, because while the son-of-man view is never explicitly identified as messiah, he is clearly and unambiguously called king---one who will rule on behalf of God over all peoples on earth. Perhaps Jesus was calling Himself a king, but couching it in words not easily recognized by Roman authorities.
The Son of Man as presented by Jesus appears in contradictory terms. He is powerful (Mark 14:62) yet suffering (Mark 13:26). He is present on earth (Mark 2:10) yet coming in the future (Mark 8:38). He will be rejected by men (Mark 10:33), yet He will judge over them (Mark 14:62). He is both a ruler (Mark 8:38) and a servant (Mark 10:45). But what appears contradictory is actually consistent with how Jesus describes the Kingdom of God. The two ideas--the Son of Man and the Kingdom of God--are often linked together in the gospels as if they are one and the same. Mark 9:1 "I tell you there are those here who will not taste death until they have seen the Kingdom of God come with power." Compare to Matthew 16:28, "I tell you there are those standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Matthew's replacement of one term with another implies that the kingdom belonging to the Son of Man is one and the same as the Kingdom of God.
Regardless of how Jesus viewed Himself, He did not establish the Kingdom of God on earth during His life, which was what His followers believed He would do. The choice for the early church was to view this remarkable man as simply another failed messiah, or to alter the view of what the Jews of Jesus' time expected of the messiah. In order to do that the apocalyptic imagery of both I Enoch and 4 Ezra, both written long after Jesus's death, paved a way forward allowing the early church to replace Jesus apparent understanding of Himself as an earthly king with a new, post-Jewish Revolt paradigm of the messiah as preexistent, predetermined, heavenly, and divine Son of Man, one whose "kingdom" was not of this world.
With the festival of the Passover at hand, Jesus' triumphant entry into Jerusalem was the only way a temporal king would enter the Holy City, with a praiseful and adulant crowd waving palm branches, laying their cloaks on the road before Him, shouting: "Hosanna! Hosanna! to the son of David! Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord." (Matt 21:9, Mark 11:9-10, Luke 19:38).
For a more fully developed discussion of Jesus' concept of Himself, read Zealot, the Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth, by Reza Aslan, copyright 2013 by Aslan Media, Inc., Chapter 11, "Who Do You Say I Am?, pages 127-145.
I highly recommend this book as a thoughtful perspective by someone who does not believe in the divinity of Jesus, but who ended his book with this: "Because the one thing any comprehensive study of the historical Jesus should hopefully reveal is that Jesus of Nazareth---Jesus the man--is every bit as compelling, charismatic, and praiseworthy as Jesus the Christ. He is, in short, someone worth believing in."
To the guy above, what does your wall of copied&pasted text serves to establish? That Jesus is not the true Christ but was also one of those who claimed to be Christ?
May God forgive you if that is what you are insinuating.
There is no other Christ but our Lord Jesus Christ. He came as it was predicted that He would, and is alive today currently seated on the right handside of God interceding for us, His sheep.
No matter how much garbage and junks people try to write to try and decieve people that Jesus is not Christ. It will alway fail and those people will always be put to shame for God is not mocked.
God needed a body of flesh to come to His people and that is how Jesus came. A body of flesh, the son of man. He shed His glorious divinity (being GOD) and came in a lowly form to redeem mankind.
Do you guys not read your Bible? Dont you read the NT? How much more proof are you all looking for that Jesus Christ is indeed the Lord and He is God
To the guy above, what does your wall of copied&pasted text serves to establish? That Jesus is not the true Christ but was also one of those who claimed to be Christ?
May God forgive you if that is what you are insinuating.
There is no other Christ but our Lord Jesus Christ. He came as it was predicted that He would, and is alive today currently seated on the right handside of God interceding for us, His sheep.
No matter how much garbage and junks people try to write to try and decieve people that Jesus is not Christ. It will alway fail and those people will always be put to shame for God is not mocked.
God needed a body of flesh to come to His people and that is how Jesus came. A body of flesh, the son of man. He shed His glorious divinity (being GOD) and came in a lowly form to redeem mankind.
Do you guys not read your Bible? Dont you read the NT? How much more proof are you all looking for that Jesus Christ is indeed the Lord and He is God
As a matter of fact I am a firmly committed Christian, although not a church goer. I had a personal experience with Jesus at the age of 16, I took 21 hours of Bible courses in college, have preached from dozens of pulpits, have seen lots of folks make decisions, have personally led people to faith in Jesus Christ-----but that doesn't mean I have to be stupid. So I study not only the Scriptures but the history of religions. I look for ways that God may test my faith.
If your faith is not tested, then you can be sure the devil has no interest in you. If you only hear what comes from the pulpit, you can be sure you are not hearing God's complete message to you.
Religious deceit is using information falsely to hold onto dogma. There are roughly 5700+ NT manuscripts extant today. And there are literally hundreds of thousands of mistakes or errors between them. There are more mistakes in the oldest NT documents that we have than there are words in the New Testament.
If your intellect can accept that fact, and your faith can stand in spite of it, then you know you have a REAL faith in God. If, instead, you have a faith that must "explain" all those vast differences in the gospels to make it fit in with the Bible, then you have an object based faith rather than a spirit based faith.
As I've quoted before, the surest way to make a liberal theologian is to have him/her read the Bible thoroughly and thoughtfully.
Quote:
Mark Twain is supposed to have said, "The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible." If he did say that, his wisdom didn't take in my case. Though I understand it differently, I love the Bible as much as I ever have. I'm just as passionate for Jesus and for the gospel as I ever have been, though I understand them differently too. But I can say this: Reading the Bible is a terrific cure for fundamentalism. That's exactly how many of us so-called liberal Bible scholars got our start.
First and foremost you cannot be a Christian if all you do is copy and paste texts that claim Jesus is not The Christ. What's your personal attack about anyway? The word of God and the ways of God does not lie on human intellect so if you think you have read gadzillion books, I dont care. God does not care either.
You said you met Jesus at a young age, and yet you are still looking for zillion books to be sure about what you know or not!! Oh the irony. If indeed you have met Jesus, I am very sure you will not be following the deceits and lies that are in those books you keep reading.
Maybe just admit you are one of those who are just interested in reading religious books and then using your limited worldly knowledge to counter who God is and what He is about. You can never win in that case.
My faith in Jesus is very strong because I know Him and He knows me, and The Holy Spirit lives in me. You dont need to worry about my faith in Him, but I would not watch while you write garbage about Jesus not being Christ but pretending to be Christ like many of the previous ones before Him.
If you really know God and Jesus, you would never have said all the nonsense you said to be honest. You read 5600 manuscripts just to know who is right and who the real Jesus is????? Wow, says much about you having met Jesus.
I am not man's sheep, but Jesus's sheep. I dont follow everything man says, i go to church but church didnt teach me what I know about Jesus. If you think the word of God and the knowledge of Christ has to do with how many books you can read, how good your grammar is or your intellect, i feel sorry for you.
You are being deceived in so many ways but then you wouldnt admit it cause you dont know you are being deceived. Just stop painting our Lord Jesus in a bad light. I know Him. He is Christ. Many others know Him too and we follow Him. Without Him you have no hope of eternal life, thats for sure
First and foremost you cannot be a Christian if all you do is copy and paste texts that claim Jesus is not The Christ. What's your personal attack about anyway? The word of God and the ways of God does not lie on human intellect so if you think you have read gadzillion books, I dont care. God does not care either.
You said you met Jesus at a young age, and yet you are still looking for zillion books to be sure about what you know or not!! Oh the irony. If indeed you have met Jesus, I am very sure you will not be following the deceits and lies that are in those books you keep reading.
Maybe just admit you are one of those who are just interested in reading religious books and then using your limited worldly knowledge to counter who God is and what He is about. You can never win in that case.
My faith in Jesus is very strong because I know Him and He knows me, and The Holy Spirit lives in me. You dont need to worry about my faith in Him, but I would not watch while you write garbage about Jesus not being Christ but pretending to be Christ like many of the previous ones before Him.
If you really know God and Jesus, you would never have said all the nonsense you said to be honest. You read 5600 manuscripts just to know who is right and who the real Jesus is????? Wow, says much about you having met Jesus.
I am not man's sheep, but Jesus's sheep. I dont follow everything man says, i go to church but church didnt teach me what I know about Jesus. If you think the word of God and the knowledge of Christ has to do with how many books you can read, how good your grammar is or your intellect, i feel sorry for you.
You are being deceived in so many ways but then you wouldnt admit it cause you dont know you are being deceived. Just stop painting our Lord Jesus in a bad light. I know Him. He is Christ. Many others know Him too and we follow Him. Without Him you have no hope of eternal life, thats for sure
Well, thank you for your judgment. Very Christian of you.
There are roughly 5700+ NT manuscripts extant today. And there are literally hundreds of thousands of mistakes or errors between them. There are more mistakes in the oldest NT documents that we have than there are words in the New Testament.
If your intellect can accept that fact, and your faith can stand in spite of it, then you know you have a REAL faith in God.
My personal opinion is that the Bible is not the word of God-----------It is simply a guide written by barbarians from another era. However, many religious people need Scripture to follow, otherwise they are completely lost. If you take the Scriptures away from a "fundie" he has nothing.
My personal opinion is that the Bible is not the word of God-----------It is simply a guide written by barbarians from another era. However, many religious people need Scripture to follow, otherwise they are completely lost. If you take the Scriptures away from a "fundie" he has nothing.
Julian, I DO believe that the Bible is inspired, but not in the pharisaical way that one poster above thinks everyone should believe (in effect saying, my only brother is a twin brother). In fact, Jesus fought against the people that viewed the OT in that fashion--calling them vipers (as did John) and stating that they were missing the weightier matters of law. The pharisees were dogmatics, believing only they held the truth about the scripture. Plenty of those still thumping their Bibles today.
Were the authors of the Bible flawed? Of course----they were men. Men writing about their faith. Men writing to persuade others about their faith. When I dig down through all the scribal additions and apologetics written into Scripture I still find more meaning in those for me than I find in your more tradition based faith. But if one believes that God could work through flawed men like Abraham who lied about his wife being his sister, through Jacob who deceived his father into giving him the blessing of the first-borne, through Sampson deceived by Delilah, and through David who committed adultery and then murder to cover it up---then it's equally possible to believe God can work through flawed scripture.
Fundamentalists, and I used to be one, haven't really found all the depth of God's love. That's why they spend so much time protecting the Bible as if it were a Golden Calf instead of a window into the heart of God. If you look carefully at the window (Scripture), there are flaws, chips, cracks. But the purpose of the window is to see God. Spending all your time trying to polish and repair the flaws and cracks, means you never have time to see into the heart of the One you worship.
But one of the traditions that won out in the Council of Nicene was that Jesus was God FROM THE BEGINNING. The point I was making in my original post is that there is an argument from some that Jesus never viewed Himself as God in the same way we Christians do now and the flawed scripture CAN support that view if one chooses to believe it. In fact, there were a large group of Christians who felt the Spirit of God came upon Jesus at His baptism ("Behold, my son, in whom I am well pleased") and which left Him at the cross ("My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me!!") The early church won the scriptural battle about Jesus being God from the beginning, Emperor Constantine banished Christians holding the other view from Christendom, and then began a thousand year reign of atrocities to root out that heretical teaching--all done in the name of God by that early church!!!
I do not discount traditions of the Catholic church nor does it bother me that the Church holds them on par with scripture. I just don't understand them so they are not part of my faith practice.
Jesus admonishment to "seek and ye shall find" was not static. It is ongoing. Once one believes they have the answer, I'm pretty certain they've lost it. As for me and my house, we will never stop seeking and trying to grow.
Julian, I DO believe that the Bible is inspired, but not in the pharisaical way that one poster above thinks everyone should believe (in effect saying, my only brother is a twin brother). In fact, Jesus fought against the people that viewed the OT in that fashion--calling them vipers (as did John) and stating that they were missing the weightier matters of law. The pharisees were dogmatics, believing only they held the truth about the scripture. Plenty of those still thumping their Bibles today.
Were the authors of the Bible flawed? Of course----they were men. Men writing about their faith. Men writing to persuade others about their faith. When I dig down through all the scribal additions and apologetics written into Scripture I still find more meaning in those for me than I find in your more tradition based faith. But if one believes that God could work through flawed men like Abraham who lied about his wife being his sister, through Jacob who deceived his father into giving him the blessing of the first-borne, through Sampson deceived by Delilah, and through David who committed adultery and then murder to cover it up---then it's equally possible to believe God can work through flawed scripture.
Fundamentalists, and I used to be one, haven't really found all the depth of God's love. That's why they spend so much time protecting the Bible as if it were a Golden Calf instead of a window into the heart of God. If you look carefully at the window (Scripture), there are flaws, chips, cracks. But the purpose of the window is to see God. Spending all your time trying to polish and repair the flaws and cracks, means you never have time to see into the heart of the One you worship.
But one of the traditions that won out in the Council of Nicene was that Jesus was God FROM THE BEGINNING. The point I was making in my original post is that there is an argument from some that Jesus never viewed Himself as God in the same way we Christians do now and the flawed scripture CAN support that view if one chooses to believe it. In fact, there were a large group of Christians who felt the Spirit of God came upon Jesus at His baptism ("Behold, my son, in whom I am well pleased") and which left Him at the cross ("My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me!!") The early church won the scriptural battle about Jesus being God from the beginning, Emperor Constantine banished Christians holding the other view from Christendom, and then began a thousand year reign of atrocities to root out that heretical teaching--all done in the name of God by that early church!!!
I do not discount traditions of the Catholic church nor does it bother me that the Church holds them on par with scripture. I just don't understand them so they are not part of my faith practice.
Jesus admonishment to "seek and ye shall find" was not static. It is ongoing. Once one believes they have the answer, I'm pretty certain they've lost it. As for me and my house, we will never stop seeking and trying to grow.
It’s an active, ongoing process.
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Revival of an old thread
